Snowman.... I bet my heating contractor can give you a forced air ECM HVAC with a condensing furnace or a boiler with an air handler exchanger with 3-4 zones all done complete for $28,000. This is for all 4000 sqft.

aj

someone should be able to GEO your place with high insulation numbers for $35,000. Tell them all that number and see who can match it.

Anyone want GEO for $100,000/4,000sqft.... please immediately contact me...

I will be there in the morning to start and be finished in 2 weeks.

aj

Posted By snowgames on 22 May 2010 10:25 AM
The prices have ranged from 70 to 100k with the duct work but in all I would have to dig the trenches and supply and install the radiant heat.

Those #'s sound steep, especially if you are completing the radiant portion(keep shopping) We operate in the Hudson Valley of NY and North Jersey. Radiant typically installs for ~ $10/sqft Cheaper in a basement where a slab will be poured already. Are you saying that you are responsible for trenching to the house from vertical bores? or trenching the entire job for horizontal? there is a big difference. Your best bet for saving $ will be air sealing and insulating as best as you can.(geo or Nat gas) This will reduce operational and install costs. Contractors should be willing to run #'s for increased insulation values vs. minimum code requirements. As far as contractors having different design ideas for backup. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Those #'s are without the tax credit...

I'm responsible for the trenching the entire horizontal job (excavation & backfill) & supply and install of radiant heat. The basement and the garage are already done ( in conc.)

As far as a skinning a cat...I agree but none of the people I talk to can convince me that there way makes the most sense...They almost seem unsure of what way to skin there cat themselves...I know I don't want to have a backup forced hot air system b/c i don't care if it only comes on once a year; I'm not paying for radiant only to have FHA on cold days.

I keep shopping but I'm running out of time to find someone good who I can trust. I feel there are a bunch of contractors in GEO and solar panels b/c of the perceived money to be made. They took a class over the weekend on the design and now they're experts...I know I can ask for references but what good are they if the prices are extraordinary and I'm not confident in them anyway.

Those #'s are insane, in a insane #'s industry
I sent you a pm I would be glad to help if I can.

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 22 May 2010 11:13 AM
Anyone want GEO for $100,000/4,000sqft.... please immediately contact me...

I will be there in the morning to start and be finished in 2 weeks.

aj

Dear sir, If you think doing business in New Jearsey has the same costs and or overhead that you and your vball buddies enjoy in upstate New York I urge you to come on down and:

lose your shirt
fail to get permits
fail ispections

Please make sure that you bring all your current New Jearsey liscenses and union cards, or you will be shut down and out.

Snow games,
If you are in the Fort Monmouth and south in  the coastal plain east of the turnpike I may be able to give you a referal. 

Eric

Eric.. you may want to know who you are talking to.... I have worked in NJ now for 15 years. In Butler, Kinnelon, Harrison...

And $100,000 is a bit rich Eric

aj

By the way... ny vball buddy's company most likely is 10 to 20 times larger than yours... I think you may not want to go there pal. ASHRAE board member just to start.

aj,

If you had all these connections, and have worked in NJ I do not understand most of your questions.  This is the internet, and what is missing a healthy dose of reality.  Stating what you would pay for a technology that you said was new to you just does not add up.  Oh well no harm no foul. 

Eric

Eric... how long shoulld it take me to figure out GEO 100 years?

It is not any more complicated than building a perfectly true tennis court out of dirt where the spec is toss a nickel in the low spot puddle... if it is covered by water... yaa didn't do a good job and it's time to correct the deficiency.

Or try painting a 10.000 foot home with glossy-er paint than flat and see what the learning curve is to get it perfect.

I am not afraid of a challenge and GEO is just a new challenge to me...

and

I aim to conquer it now.... not tomorrow.

aj

aj,
No one expects you to wait a 100 years. A IGSHPA install and design course would seem prudent though.
Eric

I'm just a homeowner, not a HVAC professional, but I am a professional in my chosen field.

As an engineer, I do work with some ASHRAE standards and am surprised to read a board member write the types of post you are posting AdkJac.

I don't believe that anyone on this forum has come close to stating that the geo is the cheapest upfront choice. Whether it's a cheaper long term choice, is specific to each installation. The 3 people that I personally know who have had geo for 10 yrs or more have found it to be an excellent long term investment. As I stated in a previous post, the types of people who decide on geo are typically different. I get a sense from your posts that your full intention here is to slam geo. If it's productive slamming, I believe people appreciate it, but when it's not productive (which is where I believe this is going) it's not helpful.

From the three years of research I've done on geo, I've found that the biggest problem with geo is installers who get in before they get some good experience and attempt to "conquer" it before then truly learn it. Then, something goes wrong, they realize that the geo parts are more expensive and slightly more complicated and they cannot support the problems they caused and then boom, they disappear and the homeowner is stuck finding a qualified and experienced geo professional to pull them out.

Not respecting and appreciating the intricacies of a geo installation to me seems to be a poor choice. Respecting your fellow professionals and not assuming that all of them are scam artists might be a better choice (especially as an ASHRAE board member).

Ona... good post and great points. I never really am trying to slam products... but I am willing to call a spade a spade quickly. In my area GEO by the best has been done rarely, and has had lots of issues. Lots! As it is installed now with much better insulation packages and much tighter construction it seems to be maturing. For me it may have a place up here, but I still need to see hard numbers that have not been manipulated by those involved. And as you said, it is real expensive and the only real answer to expense anyone has had is... hey... yaa want an Escalade, their's a price to pay. I come from a point of view of a Chevy guy I guess. Great vehicle a bit more reasonably priced. But some of my customers are Escalade types and I do understand their need and do want to see them get a GEO system if that is the choice.

So... really most of my posts here have been to really stir the pot hard and see what I can find out. And I think we all have learned much from everyone's comments yes? I think so.

And lastly... I will be trying to work with Total Green soon to get some hands on deep into the real numbers including all the paramaters and alternatives not chosen per individual build.

Thanks all for the lively debate. It's what makes for a good board.

aj

aj, as a director your name is publicly available. Would you care to share your name with us on this forum as others have done? If not, would you PM me your information so I can independently confirm your claim to be a board member (past or present) of ASHRAE? Identity theft is a crime, so I wouldn't suggest that a person say that they are someone that they are not. I will keep your information confidential unless it is requested by law enforcement (to investigate identity theft, for instance)..

Geome.... whoever you are.... I just tried to find the original post to do with vball friends... couldn't find it. What I was trying to say was that one in my circle of friends is the ASHRAE guru in my life..... not me. I am not going to name him... if we meet ever in person... you will also meet him especially if you enjoy vball or golf or hanging out on a lake or ASHRAE technical discussions.

PM me and will be glad to chat with you Geome

aj

Listen... somewhere my main point has been lost in the soup. I love all technologies... and abhor fluffed up marketing. If a product can't stand on it's own without overselling hype then I stop smiling. It is a simple as that GEO gents.

I am sure with actual unhyped up numbers and tight best price installs that there are many situations where GEO is a very very good choice.

So... call me a fan of GEO.... just hold the hype and forget the cheese... make a plain burger with lettuce and tomato. tomatoe? remember that gaff?

anybody can almost be president... ha haa
aj

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 23 May 2010 07:59 AM
Eric.. you may want to know who you are talking to.... I have worked in NJ now for 15 years. In Butler, Kinnelon, Harrison...

And $100,000 is a bit rich Eric

aj

By the way... ny vball buddy's company most likely is 10 to 20 times larger than yours... I think you may not want to go there pal. ASHRAE board member just to start.

Above is the post as it currently appears.  I do not know if this has been edited since the original post or not since edits are not currently listed for some reason (administrator?).  To test whether an edit is listed or not, I just added an extra period at the end of my last post.  The fact that I edited it does not appear.

Here are two quotes from Ona:
  "As an engineer, I do work with some ASHRAE standards and am surprised to read a board member write the types of post you are posting AdkJac."
  "Respecting your fellow professionals and not assuming that all of them are scam artists might be a better choice (especially as an ASHRAE board member)."
Funny that you did not clarify the fact that you are not a board member in your reply to her.

You write nothing based in fact (other than geothermal is expensive - no kidding.)  You present your opinions as facts.  You are not willing to list your friend's name, a director of ASHRAE, even though board member's names are all over the internet.  You state "In my area GEO by the best has been done rarely, and has had lots of issues. Lots!".  Really?  Related to the issues - Who were the installers?  Who are the homeowners?  What specific problems do they have?  What brands of equipment were they?  Where is your cost analysis to show that geothermal isn't worth the expense to the extent you purport?  On what factual basis do you make the claim that efficiency numbers are being manipulated?

"In my area GEO by the best has been done rarely...".  This means you are aware of the rare (according to you) good installations too.  Please tell us about them.  What kinds of geothermal systems were installed?  What was the system cost?  Who are the good installers in your area?  How much did the homeowners save annually, etc.?  What is the number of good installations that you are aware of?  What is the number of total installations that you are aware of?

Plenty of people here have WEL systems with more real world figures available than you can shake a stick at.  If you are truly interested, and ask nicely, someone MAY offer you assistance despite your lack of respect for forum members here.  Based on your attitude, regardless of how you justify it, I wouldn't help you.

Your credibility here is thin at best.  You offer worthless rules of thumb that are not grounded in fact.  To me, your geothermal opinions are worthless since you do not own and have first hand experience with a geothermal system, you have no training with them, you do not install them (as simple as they are:-), and you are not certified to repair them.  Opinions are fine, but present them as opinions.  You will find that you will get better responses here by asking questions rather than coming off as a know it all.  It is obvious that you know very little about these systems despite your strong assertions.

Posted By geome on 24 May 2010 02:59 PM
Based on your attitude ...

You are not alone. ...just Google: adkjac

...don't feed the troll,

Looby

Posted By Looby on 24 May 2010 03:14 PM

You are not alone. ...just Google: adkjac

Thanks Looby

That was better than reading the funnies.

Thanks Looby. Just looked up "Troll (Internet)" in Wikipedia. I didn't know they actually had a name for pathetic people that have nothing better to do.

Flame time ... cool beans.

Listen... I am not trying to talk about anything but facts and I am trying to get the facts from others who have them.

The problems for me started when no one posted any. I asked politely till I did flip about bedrock, specifically about my area, my zone, my earth temps...

And for answers... drilling is rock is hard in caps... That's an answer?

And ground temps... I see 33 to 43 degrees with the actual temps I have checked of well water coming into some homes. And asked what effect that would have on COP which is critical to knowing the value of a GEO install along with knowing some of the prices some contractors are charging for some installs.

If I am a troll... great... love the title.

I am trolling for real numbers. Anyone is welcome to PM me for real numbers, facts...

Enjoy the night men... I am



aj

And lastly... (this is an edit added comment)  many many many posts were very very very informative to me an most likely to many others who have been in the dark as to GEO... Would be great to go over this entire thread and just pull out all the real useful info and put it in it's own topic... We could leave this one as is for all those that like to read how a thread becomes personal and ends in a flame war... "oh look aj... yaa he's a troll.. yaa..." baby talk gents. Yes... I helped it along... whatever...

:)

Thanx Looby,
Somehow I feel sullied and dirty after that.
Please do not google me. I am a heritic on other forums. lol