Posted By geome on 17 Jun 2010 10:19 AM

Always a good idea to verify the installer has liability insurance and has you listed on a certificate of insurance or equivalent.

Hit a pet peave here. Listing someone as insured on a general liabitlity policy in my neighborhood changes their coverage- zilch, but costs money. Yet, it continues to be insisted on.
Guess it's fine if you don't mind paying for it.
j

What is the cost in your state with your insurer to add someone? I've never had to pay an additional amount for adding a person or entity, but this may vary by state perhaps...

One benefit that I've heard of is that a person listed will be notified should there be a cancellation of insurance (for example, due to non payment of premiums.) I would want to know that information prior to insurance being canceled.

I believe we have a choice of "named insured" which adds a name to the policy or "certificate holder" who is notified if policy is cancelled. I was told at some point a few years back that I get a couple/yr and pay per request after that (something modest ~$20 I believe). I honestly don't care as I wouldn't entertain the notion for most projects anyway. Should I ask the homeowner for a certificate of their insurance in case a trip on their broken sidewalk?
I do contract inspections for 3 cities who's legal departments didn't think it was important to be named or certificate holders, but you think homeowner's should?
If you want to be someone's certificate holder you'd better spend a lot more money than a resi geo costs to keep from being identified a kook. You need a little more juice to play with the big boys.
j

Joe, thanks for the information.
"Should I ask the homeowner for a certificate of their insurance in case a trip on their broken sidewalk?" If on the job, maybe worker's comp would come into play here, (assuming a company meets the criteria to have this coverage)? In general, yes, there seems to be a double standard here. I don't write the rules, but as long as this is common practice, I believe in protecting yourself.

"I do contract inspections for 3 cities who's legal departments didn't think it was important to be named or certificate holders, but you think homeowner's should?" I have no idea what coverage the cities' insurance provides regarding contractors.

"If you want to be someone's certificate holder you'd better spend a lot more money than a resi geo costs to keep from being identified a kook. You need a little more juice to play with the big boys." Sorry, I don't follow...but that's ok.

I need to call our insurance agent today on an unrelated issue. I'll ask about the cost of adding a certificate holder and report back.

Posted By geome on 18 Jun 2010 09:59 AM
Joe, thanks for the information.
"Should I ask the homeowner for a certificate of their insurance in case a trip on their broken sidewalk?" If on the job, maybe worker's comp would come into play here, (assuming a company meets the criteria to have this coverage)?
 
Why should my insurance have to pay for your negligence?

In general, yes, there seems to be a double standard here. I don't write the rules, but as long as this is common practice, I believe in protecting yourself.

Are you suggesting this is "common practice" or just an epiphany you had?
Are you a certificate holder on policies of all contractors that have worked for you?
You are offering advice in a forum where people seek it. For my disclosure, I have never made a homeowner a certificate holder.....How 'bout you, how many contractors are you a certificate holder of; how many contractors have you named as insured ('case your side walk is screwed up)?
j

Joe, if you want to risk not confirming a contractor doing work in your home has insurance, that's your decision, but I would advise otherwise. Since you are likewise "...offering advice in a forum where people seek it.", I am totally floored that you would imply that homeowners need not ensure that their contractors have liability (and other) insurance especially since they are doing electrical work, soldering, etc. All contractors are not as upright as you may be.

PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I never suggested people don't check insurance, I said that asking to be named on a policy is overboard, doesn't change your level of protection and may identify you as an unreasonable customer.

We have been very clear that researching your contractor is the most important thing in ensuring your success. Presumably people would ask about insurance. The most common and expensive screw-up a bad contractor will do to you, however, is put in a system that doesn't work. Insurance won't help you there.

YOU BET WE'RE INSURED! Know why? To protect us. If we break something during your installation, we are likely to fix it out of pocket.
We need coverage against extraneous law suits. Repairs are cheap, defending yourself when you are right is the only really expensive thing. Hasn't happened to me in 20 years (knock wood). One way I avoid this is by running away from kooky customers with odd requests.

Among definitions of an odd request: a homeowner who asks for something typically reserved for commercial, industrial, multi million dollar projects.

Maybe it's common practice somewhere, but not in Michigan.

If this is the hill you wish to die on geome, I might suggest a new thread as we have stepped all over somebody elses here.
j

I suggest you try verifying insurance without getting a certificate or becoming a named insured and report back to us on your success or failure. When I have previously asked for this, it was explained to me by insurance agents that this is done through a certificate (although this could be different in different states.)

"I said that asking to be named on a policy is overboard, doesn't change your level of protection and may identify you as an unreasonable customer." This is standard for insurance companies to provide this, but something you obviously don't want to be bothered with. If you want to use a customer request for an established practice (even in MI) as a screening method for customers, then that is your choice, but a poor one in my opinion. I do think it is reasonable to do this only for customers that commit to have you do their work as opposed to everyone you quote.

"Presumably people would ask about insurance." Asking about insurance and actually having it is a BIG difference. I suppose every contractor is completely truthful about everything, including insurance? I suppose people should not bother getting anything else in writing either. :-)

"...I might suggest a new thread..." I recall it was you that first listed your "pet peave" against this. You should have started a new thread at that time, but feel free to now if you wish.

"If this is the hill you wish to die on geome..." Sorry, I forgot this is "JOE"S FORUM" and opinions (not facts) that you don't agree with are not welcome.

Joe:

"Insurance tips for home remodeling

Things to keep in mind as you renovate, remodel, or add onto your home:

* Keep your home insurance agent informed about your remodeling plans. Your agent can help you sort out coverage needs.
* Know who is responsible for uninstalled appliances and other items, such as carpets and cabinets, in advance. Your contractor's insurance should cover these items.
* If you are concerned about medical bills should a family member or friend be injured while helping out with the renovations, a personal liability umbrella policy can pick up the bills where your home insurance policy leaves off.
* If you're hiring a contractor, check with the Better Business Bureau and follow up on references. Ask for proof of workers compensation and contractor's liability insurance.
* Having people you don't know working in your home can increase the risk of theft. It makes sense to protect any valuable personal property.

Source: Independent Insurance Agents of America"

This does not appear to be uncommon or limited to the big guys.

No hard feelings on my end.  I still love you. 

"Why Ed are we cross?
If you said we weren't friends....I just don't think I could bear it."
Doc Holiday, as played by Val Kilmer in Tombstone

Posted By geome on 19 Jun 2010 01:09 PM
Joe:

"Insurance tips for home remodeling

Things to keep in mind as you renovate, remodel, or add onto your home:

* Keep your home insurance agent informed about your remodeling plans. Your agent can help you sort out coverage needs.
* Know who is responsible for uninstalled appliances and other items, such as carpets and cabinets, in advance. Your contractor's insurance should cover these items.
* If you are concerned about medical bills should a family member or friend be injured while helping out with the renovations, a personal liability umbrella policy can pick up the bills where your home insurance policy leaves off.
* If you're hiring a contractor, check with the Better Business Bureau and follow up on references. Ask for proof of workers compensation and contractor's liability insurance.
* Having people you don't know working in your home can increase the risk of theft. It makes sense to protect any valuable personal property.

Source: Independent Insurance Agents of America"

This does not appear to be uncommon or limited to the big guys.

No hard feelings on my end.  I still love you. 

Sorry don't see the part in here that suggests you be a certificate holder nor have you confirmed that you were a certificate holder, nor do I see the relevence to carpets and cabinets in a geo conversation.
I get that you are now a geo expert since you've owned one for a year, but troubleshooter or a nationwide insurance expert and business consultant?
Two tantrums in as many weeks? 
No hard feelings on my end.
Still love you toooo :)

I probably shouldn't kick this anthill, but here goes anyway:

A primary threat to a homeowner is risk of injury to unlicensed contractors or their employees at work on their property. Licensed contractors maintain workers compensation coverage as a condition of licensure.

My take on this therefore is that due diligence on the part of a homeowner stops at verifying a contracting license. In Florida, and I imagine pretty much everywhere else, that is easily done online. Enter my name at the Florida Construction Industry Licensing Board website and it returns my license number and its status (valid, last I checked)

I share Joe's instinct to avoid customers who make wacko documentation requests - I would have no problem showing someone a current dec page from a relevant insurance policy, but that would likely be the extent of my accommodation of such an issue.

I'm degreed, registered and licensed, have good references and am committed to providing an economical high efficiency solution to your HVAC needs. Indeed, there isn't anything much more fulfilling to me (alone and out of bed) than solving energy systems problems quietly, elegantly, gracefully, durably and economically. Some of my work has gone into plants providing millions of pounds of steam and many megawatts of power.

If I get vibes suggesting paranoia about insurance or whatever that gives rise to a hunch that you may not be a reasonable person willing to pay for value received, I'm outta there. Borrowing from Joe's metaphor, I'm not willing to risk dying on your hill. There are plenty of other, easier-to-deal-with potential customers out there. You are an excellent candidate to become a customer of one of my competitors... good luck to him taking your hill.

Edit - I toned this response down a bit...

You indeed know more about geothermal than I, (this was not disputed) however you are simply not presenting the best recommendation to the homeowner regarding insurance.  You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I would suggest contacting your insurance agent or your attorney regarding whether this is a reasonable requests by a potential customer.  You may be surprised as to how common this is, and how much more common it may become as more installers (some disreputable) enter the geothermal field.

Based SOLELY on a request for proof of insurance - walk away from a customer if you like. A competitor knowledgeable with this insurance issue, and more willing to provide it, may not walk away. Yes, you may be pleased that the competitor has the job, but so may the customer and your competitor.  Even Joe said that he would entertain such a request to provide this information. So there is some confusion here as to the argument being presented.  I understand your desire to not want to bother with this aspect of insurance, however this does not make it any less relevant to homeowner protection.  In a prior job, I was responsible for contacting the company's insurance agent for requesting certificates.  One 5 minute phone call, if that, and a fax, that's all.  I get this feeling this is more of a principal thing with you.

Joe, why don't you acknowledge that "proof" of insurance is listed?  Show me another way of obtaining "proof", and I'll be happy to listen.  Curt, while a dec page is good start, a copy of the dec page is not proof of current insurance.  That being said, I was quite impressed with one contractor that I had came over to quote an unrelated job, and brought his dec page (in a binder with other documents) with him without me even asking for it.  Joe, don't you think geothermal is a home improvement and is more involved than carpets or cabinets, hence a greater need to insure that insurance is in effect?

Joe, if you really want to go there, "Two tantrums in as many weeks?" So, that makes a grand total of two for me?  I'm sure, your tally far exceeds this, even adjusted for time as members of the forum.

Customers screen installers too, possibly more so than the reverse. I would suggest that homeowners run away from an installer not willing to provide proof of insurance.  It would send the wrong signal to me if a contractor isn't willing to provide me with this information after all other aspects of the job were agreed upon.  It would be silly for a customer to ask everyone quoting for this documentation.

I would sincerely hope that anyone that stuck with this thread long enough to get to this point will consult with their insurance agent (an insurance expert) to find out what they recommend related to a "Certificate of Insurance" or being a "Named Insured" or something else when any work is done on their house.  After all, insurance can vary from state to state.

You were right in that this discussion would serve people better had it been in it's own thread.  Maybe the administrator can break out the relevant parts and entitle it "Is proof of insurance needed?"

we have a waterfurnace and they do not cover their warranty at all and the local company that carries it
is awful. nothing but complaint from all i have talked with. we have a extended warranty from wf but
it was worthless. their local dealer even did bi yearly inspections for 7yrs to catch any probs but all they did
was take money and nothing else. we are getting ready to file suit for fraud,and massive electric bills
so if you get them to
do anything your lucky. all we got was a really bad reflection of wf thru there dealer that was so
rude that i was in shock. and that takes alot...lol so if your listening wf... please call and prove
that it was a bad company representing your product and not you guys. dont want to sue but
have run out of options and have been patient and fair

8mongo,

We have received your contact, and are waiting on additional information from you. We will be more than happy to look into your concerns and do our best to facilitate a resolution.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Water Furnace has not been a good experience for us as seems to be the case with others. From what I have discovered, they have some design issues and instead of manning up and fixing the problems, they do thier best to sell you a newer model that just has different problems. We are on our 2nd Geothermal system in the last 7 years with nothing but problems from day 1 and expense after expense. This was the most costly mistake I have ever made. I am giving up and selling the house, and the new one will NOT have anything in it that has a Water Furnace name on it. Here is an abreviated summary our our issues.

Had a "Brand new design" split system installed 7 years ago with nothing but problems and very little utility savings since day 1.
After 5 years of problems (most covered by warranty) but causing high utility costs, and costly service agreements, the compressor failed.
We were told that we had chosen a 5 year warranty instead of thier "Standard 10 yr." warranty, (don't remember that, but had no proof) so we were told we could replace the compressor, but there would be no warranty because the unit was an unreliable unit to begin with. Water furnace suggested that since thier original design was not reliable, they designed a "Brand new design" (sound familiar). Water Furnace would not speak directly to me, only through a supplier. Since the original installer did not seem to be doing much to try and resolve my concerns with the Water furnce company, and the Water furnace company would not comunicate with me directly, I contacted another well established installer for Water furnace, but they also installed another brand, and I was determined to not use Water Furnace again. After much discussion, they convinced me that the new Water furnace unit would resolve all my problems with less effort and cost than changing brands, so reluctantly, I purchased the "new design" outside unit only as they recommended. When installed in January, the new unit would not work at all. After daily visits by the installer for weeks and what appeared to be very little help from Water furnace, they finally sent an Engineer from the company to investigate the design issues. As I said, this is the much abreviated version, so after about 4 months of off and on performace, the unit worked through the summer, only to fail again the next winter. More repeated installer visits, another Water furnase Engineer visit or two and the unit started working for a short time before warm weather again, well it turned to winter again and guess what. There were 4 visits this past winter resulting in another $8,000 quote to replace the inside unit that they now say is not compatable with the new outside unit. The whole reason I did not change brands was because "Water furnace" said the "new design" outside unit only, purchased at a discounted price of $5,500 would take care of all my problems. All I can say is "Don't Buy Water Furnace"

My house will soon be for sale because of Water Furnace. I would not recomend Water Furnace to my worst enemy.

Wow!

That's not a typical WF experience, to say the least.

I'd sure like to know more details.

Rather than dredging up a thread dead for many moons, consider starting your very own new thread. New threads here are free and allow the rest of us to explicitly focus on the issues raised while not watering down or hijacking someone else's legitimate concerns.

No matter what is said here to smooth over this situation, it takes time for something like this to escalate to this level.  We can all learn something from this, like follow ups from the factory after warranty registration. If they really don't want bad press, then they should make sure customers are happy.   I have been in this situation before and I know that if I felt someone was listening and trying to remedy the faults, I would most likely calm down and not blast off.   Hopefully, you have their attention now.

SprintB,

We will be more than happy to look into your inquiry further. Could you please provide your model number, serial number, and the name of the contractor you are working with? If you are not comfortable posting your information publicly, please feel free to send us a private message.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.