bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 07 Sep 2010 12:21 PM |
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Well, the time has come - replacing my Old Waterfurnace.
6 Ton closed loop system, installed when we build the home exactly 15 years ago.
AT model, d-super and dual stage.
EVERY moving part has been replaced at least once, EVERY moving part. EVERY moving part.
Countless repairs and downtime. I bet perhaps 30+ service calls over the 15 years - easy perhaps even 50.
The blower twice. Temp valve twice, D superheater motor twice.
The new parts usually looked different that the old part - tells me quite a bit of re-engineering was taking place....
The second compressor has just failed; given the overall age of the unit I am replacing it.
Obviously, I have a very low opinion of the quality of Waterfurnace - very low.
I would NEVER buy one without a 10 year warranty - parts and labor.
Looking for alternatives to Waterfurnace - other brands or possible types of systems that are more reliable (Train Heat Pumps?).
The company that services my Waterfurnace has given me a quote on a new one:
Envision, 6 Ton, 2 stage with a D-Super - $12,250
1 year parts and labor, 5 year on the compressor.
They want $1,250 more for a full 10 year warranty (Parts and Labor)
SO, for the swap out they want $13,500.
Is this pricing typical? Having a hard time paying for the warranty.
Only one year full warranty - that doesn't exactly tell me Waterfurnace stands behind their products.
My toaster has a longer warranty - and it actually works ;)
Thoughts anyone? |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 07 Sep 2010 09:54 PM |
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I do have some thoughts. First of which is what reason was given for all the failures.
What are we referring to as a "temp valve"? Do you mean reversing valve?
Was this a single compressor unit?
I'm not aware of a new WF unit that doesn't have a ten year part warranty on major components. Labor is another matter.
Not a WF dealer myself, but don't have bad things to say about them.
A water furnace I serviced recently had a litany of problems as well, but the electrical supply was poor enough that the unit spent much of it's life browned out.
Keep shopping.
Good Luck,
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Dafr
New Member
Posts:16
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| 08 Sep 2010 02:17 AM |
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Just installed a Hydron unit in my home. The 10 year warranty is built into the cost of unit. |
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Bergy
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 08 Sep 2010 08:46 AM |
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Don't forget the lifetime compressor warranty on the Hydron Revolution.
Bergy
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WF_Inc.
New Member
Posts:88
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| 08 Sep 2010 09:59 AM |
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bearabull,
WaterFurnace equipment comes standard with a 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty. However, because our customers have varied needs and budgets, we offer other warranty options that can reduce the cost of installation. Please note that we no longer offer a 1 year warranty, as it does not qualify for Energy Star®.
As for your current unit, please provide your model and serial numbers, as we will be more than happy to work with you and your contractor to facilitate a resolution. Once we have received this information, we will review to see what assistance we will be able to offer.
WaterFurnace International, Inc. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 08 Sep 2010 10:49 PM |
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That's a miserable ownership experience.
I wonder what circumstances caused so many failures.
WF, CM, Hydron and FHP have many same or similar components, so while the desire to swap brands is understandable, I don't expect doing so will be a panacea. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 08 Sep 2010 11:11 PM |
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This was a Premier AT installed in 1995. At the time I guess the warranty was 5 years. It's a single compressor unit, so yes the replacement compressor has failed. The first one failed at about 5 years, the second one lasted about 10. Yes it is BI valve that failed - twice. The D-super pump failed again and we just stopped using it (years ago). Reasons for failures are numerous. Obvious stuff like squeeling bearings for the motors. Valves wearing out. The compressor draws a lot of amps and you know it will fail. Got so bad the techs wrote settings on the covers so if someone else came out they know what to set the unit for. I just think the parts were of poor quality, and after they were replaced with ones that looked different the failures sort of stopped. The bulk of the failures occured in the first 6 years. I am an engineer by trade and I think the unit was under engineered for our cold climate - Cleveland. Did a great job on AC, heating is a challenge for GEO units. I think that is their shortcomming - especially Waterfurnance units. These are probably better for milder climates where it doesn't get too hot or too cold. |
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 08 Sep 2010 11:14 PM |
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Well this is an interesting post. I guess I will have to have a chat with Burton Sheet Metal to understand why I need to "buy" a "warranty", er I mean a service contract in order to have the parts and labor covered for 10 years. Interesting.
I'll post the model and serial numbers, unless you agree to replace the compressor, I don't understand what good it will do me. |
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 08 Sep 2010 11:25 PM |
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Thanks for the info on the Hydron, I'll check them out. |
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 09 Sep 2010 08:22 AM |
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Serial # JK6621
Model # ATV070A110CLT |
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 09 Sep 2010 08:29 AM |
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Having a company that sells ClimateMaster out today to get their quote. I'll let everyone know what happens. |
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WF_Inc.
New Member
Posts:88
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| 09 Sep 2010 03:52 PM |
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bearabull,
Thank you for the additional information. We have been in contact with David at Burton Sheet Metal to review your situation, and they will be contacting you.
WaterFurnace International, Inc. |
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geotek
Basic Member
Posts:154
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| 09 Sep 2010 07:21 PM |
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Makes me wonder if there are underlying problems here... as in design or installation issues. I assume you have a rather large house to need a 6 ton unit. It might behoove you to have a manual J and manual D performed before you decide on a replacement unit. |
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 09 Sep 2010 08:56 PM |
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I hear you on sizing, and appreciate you advise. Just had a discussion considering sizing. We had the sizing done when we built the home. Your post highlights the problem with the GEO unit in cold climates (6500 HDD). We sized for heat as the winters are long and very cold. Came in at 5.5 tons - so we went with 6. BUT, in summer where hot is 85 and 90% RH the AC is certainly oversized and so does not run long enough to dehumidify. With a conventional system, we would have the big gas heater, and a much smaller electric AC unit. I am considering going with a 5 ton, but this is an existing home and I don't want to change any ductwork. Our home is 3800 SF, but has large rooms and 12' to 18' ceilings. Air volume of the home is huge, and many windows, perhaps 50% of the exterior walls are glass. Some rooms are 100% glass walls. I don't think sizing is the problem. |
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geotek
Basic Member
Posts:154
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| 10 Sep 2010 10:04 AM |
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Be aware that your existing unit runs 50% capacity on low speed and new units run about 70% capacity on low speed because they use a different compressor.Thats going to compromise your cooling comfort even more. A heat load calculation would be more accurate and can be run through a sizing program to estimate fuel costs with different units.I would not size for much more than 90% of the heating load. Geothermal is all about comfort and economy do it right and you will get both. |
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 10 Sep 2010 11:16 AM |
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Yes I read that the low speed is now 70%. I would like to get away with a smaller unit if possible as the GEO system needs to cycle as little as possible to get the efficiency that is advertised.
I find it funny that the geo companies tout fuel savings but fail to include the costs of the system. My waterfurnance for example amortized costs are about $1200 year, plus all the repair bills (another 300-500) and it actually costs me more than the estimated economic savings. Not to mention all the downtime. |
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Dafr
New Member
Posts:16
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| 11 Sep 2010 09:10 AM |
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Why do you plan to replace with another geo unit if you believe with amortized costs you would be better off with "conventional" HVAC???? |
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bearabull
New Member
Posts:11
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| 11 Sep 2010 06:55 PM |
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Big problem is we don't have GAS, so I would have to have a propane tank, not too thrilled about that. In our area it has to be above ground, I think its unsightly.
Other option is a Heat Pump - which I am looking into. GEO would be fine if my waterfurnance actually worked as advertised. BTW, heating the house now with wood, added the system years ago as the waterfurnance was broke so often. On a cold winter night it can get the house to 65, better than freezing and waiting for the waterfurnance to get fixed. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 11 Sep 2010 08:19 PM |
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You might considering two smaller units - more likely that one will always be running and better for summer cooling.
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 13 Sep 2010 09:30 AM |
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Posted By bearabull on 09 Sep 2010 08:56 PM
I hear you on sizing, and appreciate you advise. Just had a discussion considering sizing. We had the sizing done when we built the home. Your post highlights the problem with the GEO unit in cold climates (6500 HDD). We sized for heat as the winters are long and very cold. Came in at 5.5 tons - so we went with 6.
I don't think sizing is the problem. Did you mean to say load was around 66MBH?!? In Cleveland, that would call for about a 4 ton. 5 to a 100% loader (someone who designs out aux. heat). 6 likely would short cycle (particularly in cooling seasons) and I would expect problems. That is not a brand quality problem, that is poor design. It also calls for more than 400 sq in of return air. How big is your return air drop? RE ROI: Are you suggesting that you did not calculate purchase price of equipment into ROI? We include purchase/installation price of geo in every ROI calc. Most recently against propane (thanks to tax credits) 3.78 years for a 1800 SF ranch on a walk-out (included replacement price of furnace and AC into calcs as they were due). I'm concerned that you may have had poor design advice combined with uncertain expectations which is not a recipe for satisfaction. If you think geo is expensive, find out what your propane neighbors pay to heat their homes. ASHP would be cheaper than the propane only heat, but none will compare to properly designed/installed geo. I'll be interested to hear what other bidders recommend. I'm might suggest you visit the shoppers checklist, and focus on the experience of perspective bidders and their references. Good Luck, Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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