joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 19 Sep 2010 10:00 AM |
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If you are a new geo shopper due to Time Magazine's, Krista Mahr reporting in "Going Green" that geo systems cost "about $7,500 for a typical residence" you have a nasty suprise awaiting you.
The article "Digging Deep for Smarter Heat" has an illustration of a closed loop vertical system complete with desuperheater (which is characterized as "awesomely named") and suggests that "front end costs are high". While much on page 74 of the 20Sept10 is reasonably accurate, the system depicted could easily cost 3 to 10 times $7,500, depending on many variables.
If MS Mahr had hoped to advance interest in geo she likely will do more harm than good. Fortunately the customer who gave this to me, while I installed her new heat pump (for about twice the "typical" price mentioned) does not believe everything she reads.
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
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| 19 Sep 2010 10:39 AM |
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I think here is her source:
www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12670
US Dept of Energy: Energy Efficiency & Renewable Energy
"On average, a geothermal heat pump system costs about $2,500 per ton of capacity, or roughly $7,500 for a 3-ton unit (a typical residential size). ). A system using horizontal ground loops will generally cost less than a system with vertical loops. In comparison, other systems would cost about $4,000 with air conditioning."
Regards,
Masoud
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 19 Sep 2010 10:45 AM |
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Heck the feds pay $2,500 per pencil...... |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 19 Sep 2010 11:09 AM |
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I could probably get close to $7500 on a 3 ton, assuming good pre-existing ductwork but it would have to be open loop using an existing well.
That federal data is hopelessly out of data at best. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 19 Sep 2010 11:49 AM |
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Sediment filter, 2 solenoids, 2 flow raters, 1 flow ga, related plumbing with boiler drains, excavated drain to......? (2-3K cost)
The only time I have come close to this number is when existing geo is replaced and has adequate drain and duct (and new unit was 1 stage).
Not a realistic number regardless of existing conditions.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 19 Sep 2010 11:54 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 19 Sep 2010 11:09 AM
That federal data is hopelessly out of data at best.
Governments often get this type of information from outside "experts."
And once published, the 'data' immediately joins the ranks of internet
urban legends and e-zombies:
http://geoheat.oit.edu/ghp/survival.pdf
"Total Installed Cost: $6873 to $8997" (page 9, figure 6.)
...expert: a guy from out of town with a brief case
Looby
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 20 Sep 2010 10:19 AM |
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Posted By Looby on 19 Sep 2010 11:54 AM
Posted By engineer on 19 Sep 2010 11:09 AM
That federal data is hopelessly out of data at best. Governments often get this type of information from outside "experts."
And once published, the 'data' immediately joins the ranks of internet
urban legends and e-zombies:
http://geoheat.oit.edu/ghp/survival.pdf
"Total Installed Cost: $6873 to $8997" (page 9, figure 6.)
...expert: a guy from out of town with a brief case
Looby
I'm reminded of an interview with a retired fed agent who said whenever the FBI doesn't know the quantitiy of something they insert the number of 50,000. It is remarkable how often that number comes up if you listen for it....."FBI estimates number of sleeper agents in the states as 50,000"......"as many as 50, 000 refugees".........."50,000 travelers were searched"...... You don't think gov. types would just make stuff up do you? J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 20 Sep 2010 10:23 AM |
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Posted By Looby on 19 Sep 2010 11:54 AM
Posted By engineer on 19 Sep 2010 11:09 AM
That federal data is hopelessly out of data at best.
Governments often get this type of information from outside "experts."
And once published, the 'data' immediately joins the ranks of internet
urban legends and e-zombies:
http://geoheat.oit.edu/ghp/survival.pdf
"Total Installed Cost: $6873 to $8997" (page 9, figure 6.)
...expert: a guy from out of town with a brief case
Looby
'round here they call 'em "carpetbaggers", but I s'pose that's way old-skool.  |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 25 Sep 2010 07:37 AM |
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Absolutely the government should just butt out. The predictable effect of government subsidies like the energy tax incentives is to distort prices, turning these programs into giveaways to manufacturers and installers. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 25 Sep 2010 10:46 AM |
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Posted By toddm on 25 Sep 2010 07:37 AM
Absolutely the government should just butt out. The predictable effect of government subsidies like the energy tax incentives is to distort prices, turning these programs into giveaways to manufacturers and installers.
I suppose it doesn't help homeowners that couldn't otherwise get into geothermal either?  |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Happywelldriller
New Member
Posts:21
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| 25 Sep 2010 11:20 AM |
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I agree with govt programs I have seen several clients hold off due to confusion or hopes for a new and better program. In NJ geo will be hurt by rising electric rates due to subsidized solar and wind programs |
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Happywelldriller
New Member
Posts:21
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| 25 Sep 2010 11:22 AM |
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Actually I meant to agree with govt butt out of geo and all energy programs. Geo can carry itself if affordable electric is available. Sorry for th
E miscommunication. |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 25 Sep 2010 12:36 PM |
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Geome, you have to wonder how much of the tax incentive is actually getting through to taxpayers as opposed to being siphoned off by higher prices. Joe Ami is telling us geo prices have gone up by two or three times the cost estimates still used by the feds. Everywhere else in construction there is tremendous pressure to cut prices and wages. The erosion control contractor that quoted $10 a linear foot in 2008 charged me $4 a foot in 2009. Just asking here if the govt might not get more energy efficiency -- and a smaller deficit -- if it just let the market work. |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 25 Sep 2010 12:40 PM |
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Posted By Happywelldriller on 25 Sep 2010 11:22 AM
Geo can carry itself if affordable electric is available.
Sorry for th E miscommunication.
Agree 500%. If it weren't for gummit meddling in stuff like ARPA, we
wouldn't have such a rampant plague of th E [sic] miscommunication.
...fight government interference -- boycott the internet!
Looby |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 25 Sep 2010 01:46 PM |
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Posted By Happywelldriller on 25 Sep 2010 11:22 AM
Actually I meant to agree with govt butt out of geo and all energy programs. Geo can carry itself if affordable electric is available. Sorry for th
E miscommunication.
Are you saying that you won't mention the tax credit to prospective clients, even if it means you won't get the job (due to price), but could otherwise get the job if you made the client aware of the credit? |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Happywelldriller
New Member
Posts:21
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| 25 Sep 2010 07:23 PM |
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I think the federal tax credit is fantastic. I am philosophically opposed to it. I should have been more clear and am speaking mainly of different NJ programs. Originally there was a utility brat that in the 1980's almost covered wholesale cost of units. This of course was funded by taxpayers and ratepayers. Since then that program has been cut to almost zero and different state programs and loans have come went and been altered. NJ government is very inefficient when it comes to administering programs and numerous changes leaves homeowners and installers confused and hesitant to pull the trigger on systems that would make sense economically with no incentives. We do trumpet tax credits but I feel like I am betraying my values in the process. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 26 Sep 2010 12:01 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 25 Sep 2010 12:36 PM
Geome, you have to wonder how much of the tax incentive is actually getting through to taxpayers as opposed to being siphoned off by higher prices. Joe Ami is telling us geo prices have gone up by two or three times the cost estimates still used by the feds. Flat out wrong, that's what I called the numbers in Time magazine. Flat out wrong is also how I would describe your comment above. Prices haven't gone up 2 or 3 times, the number was wrong. You couldn't get a 3 ton closed loop installed for $7,500 20 years ago, and you still can't. You can't buy all the pieces of a 3 ton closed loop system for $7,500 at dealer prices. Geo pricing in my area is relatively flat and has been for years with the exception of Energy Star requirments driving prices up slightly. 2 stage compressors and longer warranties are not freebies thrown in by the manufacturer. In ROI discussions you slant the formula to further your anti geo sentiment, and now you want to misquote me to support your case? You do your arguments a dis-service sir. Sorry your experience with geo was a bad one, I wish you had found this resource before things went so horribly wrong. Good Luck, Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 26 Sep 2010 01:04 PM |
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My apology for misquoting you. It was Engineer who called the fed's nos "hopelessly out of date at best."
Now it is your turn. I've never had a geo system and consequently no bad experiences or axes to grind. And there is no "slant" in life cycle cost analyses. They are done thousands of times a day by hardheaded business people. The slant I find on this forum is sales types who call a geo purchase an investment when it doesn't earn income or appreciate in value and thus fails Noah Webster's two criteria, or call it cash flow positive when they really asking you to defer the hit. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 26 Sep 2010 02:23 PM |
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toddm, whatever you call it, we spent $1,200 less in utility costs with geo than the prior year without geo. We installed the geo system that had a $7,500 incremental cost over 2 new Trane 13 Seer heat pumps (after the tax credit.) We are also much more comfortable and the geo system should easily outlast an air source heat pump.
In roughly 7 years, we will have spent less in utilities than the incremental cost of our geo system. In less than 15 years, we will spent less in utilities than the entire cost of the system (after the tax credit), assuming no utility price increases. Also, in 15 years, the air source heat pump would most likely need to be replaced (within the useful life of our geo system. When the geo system needs replacing in 20 years, we should be able to reuse our ground loop, resulting in lower installation expense than the initial installation. Also, between years 15 and 20, spending less on utility costs can be banked and applied toward geo replacement costs to the tune of $6,000 with no interest factored in.
Maintenance costs from our installer, excluding our $190 cleanable electrostatic filters with lifetime warranty (x2 if you want to include the extra set), is $220/year for 2 service visits per year. I'll do the maintenance myself for less than that. Additional information is under my thread 1st year operating results. Tell me my geothermal purchase was not wise and I will laugh at you. Results for some people are better than ours, some are worse.
Perhaps you should check into a geo system for yourself. It does not pay for everyone and no one here will say that it does. As for salesmen, honest and dishonest and knowledgeable and uneducated people (including salesmen) can be found everywhere. Why you chose a geothermal forum to vent, considering you don't have one, is beyond me. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
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| 26 Sep 2010 03:01 PM |
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Looby...you agree 500%????
I think you mean 400%. Most Geo Systems have a COP of about 4. :-)
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