|
|
Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
 |
| 09 Dec 2010 11:58 AM |
|
Posted By jonr on 09 Dec 2010 10:35 AM
I used to think this was generally true until I saw actual data.
....
For the specific pump in question - I have no idea.
So, which is it? ..."actual data?" ...or "no idea?" |
|
| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
|
|
chrisbiker
New Member
Posts:97
|
| 09 Dec 2010 04:51 PM |
|
Interesting topic... My system in 4 ton closed loop with 2 UP-99 pumps. I have an inline flow meter and get about 14 GPM with two pumps running and about 9-10 GPM with just one running (I unwired one to test).
4 ton needs about 12 GPM per the manual.
Question: Does someone make a simple relay module so just one pump runs on 1st stage, and 2 pumps run on 2nd stage? I can rig it up a DIY project, but just wanted to check what's out there. Have it wired to Y2, so it runs two pumps on call for 2nd stage...
May not be worth the cost though.
Thanks,
Chris |
|
|
|
|
decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
|
| 10 Dec 2010 07:06 AM |
|
Chris, - Redacted - I'll let the experts reply. I'm having enough problems again this season. With the cold weather upon us, my system has already had to use aux heat, otherwise the house doesn't stay at temperature. I do use setbacks (about 5 degrees at night). I'm thinking of programming that up. I don't like seeing the house at 67 when I get up, set at 69, and the aux heat indicator on. You should see the spikes on Google Power Meter. I got some beautiful (not!) 10 kw spikes on the graph.  And my system went into lockout due to low EWT this morning, too. |
|
|
|
|
Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
|
| 10 Dec 2010 10:32 AM |
|
Posted By stuart.wyss on 10 Dec 2010 07:06 AM
...
When the water is moving slowly, it's able to pick up more heat from the earth. If, in Stage 2, the water flow increased, you'd actually be pulling less heat from the earth, as the water would spend less time underground.
....
this is not quite right. The flow must be high enough to create turbulence. The gpm needed by a heat pump is less for 1st stage than 2nd stage. On houses it is not much of an issue. On commercial installs the loop pumps are Variable speed to match the flow to the demand. |
|
Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
|
|
Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
|
| 10 Dec 2010 10:39 AM |
|
Posted By chrisbiker on 09 Dec 2010 04:51 PM
....
Question: Does someone make a simple relay module so just one pump runs on 1st stage, and 2 pumps run on 2nd stage? I can rig it up a DIY project, but just wanted to check what's out there. Have it wired to Y2, so it runs two pumps on call for 2nd stage...
...
There is a control module available, you can look at one here. |
|
Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
|
|
Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
|
| 10 Dec 2010 10:40 AM |
|
Posted By chrisbiker on 09 Dec 2010 04:51 PM
....
Question: Does someone make a simple relay module so just one pump runs on 1st stage, and 2 pumps run on 2nd stage? I can rig it up a DIY project, but just wanted to check what's out there. Have it wired to Y2, so it runs two pumps on call for 2nd stage...
...
There is a control module available, you can look at one here. |
|
Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
|
|
chrisbiker
New Member
Posts:97
|
| 10 Dec 2010 12:20 PM |
|
Dean- thanks. That looks like the ticket. Put the relay module on pump 2 with the Y2 driving on/off. It would be cool if they had a module that would alternate pumps each cycle, but that may be overkill. I think I would get a Y2 call almost everyday due to temp return from setback, so the second pump should run at least once everyday. I hate to leave one pump just sitting.
Suart- sorry to hear your having issues. I have my breakers for the toaster coils off, and temp is maintaining good.
More insulation going into our attic on Monday to lower consumption some more.
Chris |
|
|
|
|
decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
|
| 10 Dec 2010 12:23 PM |
|
I think my house is poorly insulated....tight, but not well insulated. |
|
|
|
|
docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
|
| 10 Dec 2010 03:23 PM |
|
I would highly encourage you to get yourself a WEL and display the energy data here, so we can all have a look at it. It is money well spent, otherwise you have high running costs for the whole heating season and you do not know why. |
|
| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
|
|
decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
|
| 10 Dec 2010 03:37 PM |
|
What would be the minimum configuration?
WELserver
EWT
LWT
Outside Temp |
|
|
|
|
Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
|
| 10 Dec 2010 03:54 PM |
|
Posted By stuart.wyss on 10 Dec 2010 03:37 PM
What would be the minimum configuration?
WELserver
EWT
LWT
Outside Temp
I would add run time |
|
Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
|
|
decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
|
| 10 Dec 2010 04:11 PM |
|
Runtime would mean, detecting if the system is on or not, right? Some sort of current detector on the hot wire or something? |
|
|
|
|
docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
|
| 10 Dec 2010 04:40 PM |
|
Run time, you can do this with the combo module monitoring the stages, it also shows you the run time per stage and per heatpump.
The rest we use temperature sensor only.
one air sensor, the rest the sealed stainless steel ones.
Fore forced air systems, we monitor outside temp, inside temp, supply and return air temps, any tanks temperatures (buffer, DHW), EWT, LWT, in and out load temps, DSH temps in and out.
Here is an example:
http://welserver.com/WEL0336/ |
|
| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
|
|
jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
|
| 10 Dec 2010 05:19 PM |
|
Would be interesting to measure KWH plus in/out temps and flow so that you could calculate COP.
|
|
|
|
|
docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
|
| 11 Dec 2010 01:11 AM |
|
"Would be interesting to measure KWH plus in/out temps and flow so that you could calculate COP. "
You can get a wattnode meter, it will measure the consumption. Alternatively you can get an analog current meter, similar to the current switch, and once you know your voltage you can meassure accumulated wattage. Flow is tough to constantly monitor, but one measurement will do since it usually does not change much with constant speed pumps.
The power meter and COP will not tell you anything more than the temperatures whether your system runs efficient and guide you where your issues are. |
|
| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
|
|
decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
|
| 11 Dec 2010 08:20 AM |
|
Last night was not quite as cold, but I decided to try something. I reconnected both circ pumps. I also reprogrammed the thermos with only a 2 degree setback over night in both zones, so 69 in the day, 67 night/sleep. This morning, house was at normal temperature, no lockouts, no aux heat used overnight (no peaks on Google Powermeter). EWT 43. LWT 36. Geo runs very regularly, but not continuously.
Will monitor performance into next week at current settings....supposed to be 52F tomorrow (Sunday) but back to 30 during the day M/T/W with nights at 22F.
|
|
|
|
|
engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
|
| 11 Dec 2010 08:33 AM |
|
I have $30 Readington hourmeters on Y1 and Y2 control signals. LCD indication of hours and tenths. Low tech but effective |
|
Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
|
|
|
dgbair
New Member
Posts:54
|
| 11 Dec 2010 10:29 AM |
|
stuart.wyss - I haven't had any time to look into the details but I did stumble upon this monitoring device the other night. http://www.barix.com/Barionet_50/1351/ Price of unit is $165 plus you would need wire, sensors, programming skills, etc, and you certainly would not have the cool web pages which come along with the wel setup. I have no idea when I may get some free time to look into this more... I have one too many projects started already at home; and then there's that full time job which pays the bills. If you get time to look into this more let me know what you think. |
|
|
|
|
decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
|
| 11 Dec 2010 10:48 AM |
|
Thanks! I'll take a look.
Meanwhile, here, I've got a pressure drop of 5 psi (64.2 and 59.2 on the ground loop) with EWT 46 and LWT at 38. House is very comfy.
Trying to work out what the gpm would be with a delta of 5 at (let's say) 40F on a 4 ton system.
The manual says that at 30F, a pressure drop of 4.5 is 12 gpm. At 50F, a pressure drop of 4.2 is 12 gpm.
Extrapolating.... a drop of 4.35 at 40F is 12 gpm. I made a little graph in Excel to see what it would be for a drop of 5 at 40F, and I got about 12.5, maybe 13 gpm.
|
|
|
|
|
docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
|
| 12 Dec 2010 12:15 AM |
|
Just remind me again, what kind of heatpump do you have? Model? |
|
| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
|
|