Junkhound,

I think it would be best if you were to keep your idiotic comments to yourself!

Bergy

What is idiotic about the comments? I really would like to know. Nothing technically incorrect, eye do tend to PO salespersons and realtors with the truth though

Or, are you simply a slick greasy salesman who does not want the public to know any facts or how simple gshp really is ?

HVAC is simple and cheap for anyone with a steady supply of used compressors and other components from changeouts, a full set of HVAC tools, the skills to use them, EPA certification, a month of Sundays to tinker with a Frankensystem, no one else living in the home to complain of freezing / broiling / sweltering...been there, done that - had fun, learned loads.

That said, suggesting that an average homeowner proceed down that path is totally inappropriate. Actually, it's barking mad!

Matched components? AHRI certificates? Warranties? Energy Star ratings, tax credits? Petty bureaucratic nuisances to you, I'm sure...

Your accusing anyone here of witholding facts is particularly rich with irony since I'm quite sure you are a regular at HVAC-TALK - the Internet's HVAC Union Hall (No DIY assistance, no pricing, double secret probation, restricted access to forums, yadda yadda)

Kindly do us here a favor and get along back to HVAC-TALK...please leave us alone.

Thank you.

Posted By junkhound on 26 Mar 2011 10:18 AM
Does SE MI really have geothermal avbailable? If so, that is the way to go. Just like homosexuals misuse and appropriated the word 'gay', so the GSHP marketeers have prostituted themselves and use 'geothermal', which in engineering parlance means graound water or steam over 50C> , meaning places like yellowstone, Rotarua, Klamath Falls, etc..

Let's see... Which part of this statement is not IDIOTIOC??

Bergy

Let us know how they arrived at this cost-savings > compared to a conventional Ngas Furnace?< ($1500 to $1800 o. p. annually with geo).

Posted By minkia38 on 23 Feb 2011 06:54 PM
Yes, payback would only be a few years, acording to his calculations.....

Let us know how they arrived at this cost-savings >compared to a conventional Ngas Furnace?< ($1500 to $1800 o. p. annually with geo).

Posted By junkhound on 26 Mar 2011 10:18 AM
minkia: How much of a DIY are you, or is someone else building your house?

If you are a DIY, you can build and install a 5T COP 5.6 GSHP or WSHP for under $1000!! Pay somebody and likely nearer $15K.

Does SE MI really have geothermal avbailable? If so, that is the way to go. Just like homosexuals misuse and appropriated the word 'gay', so the GSHP marketeers have prostituted themselves and use 'geothermal', which in engineering parlance means graound water or steam over 50C> , meaning places like yellowstone, Rotarua, Klamath Falls, etc..

Hey everybody, junkbound built his own geo, who knew?
Whoever stole the term gothermal for our passive solar designs let it be known Junky called you out.
Whoever stole the term "solar system" from our sun and neighboring planets for your PV or water heating systems- you are next on the list (surely you couldn't have all those planets on your roof in SE MI).

I can answer this one; H/O is not interested in DIY as I offered to assist in that.
While he's a little out of my reach for a new con project, he's close enough to support (~60 miles of no good way from here to there).
So while I did not suggest he garbage pick his HVAC system, DIY was certainly discussed (at least by this "oily salesman"). Unable to get a partner contractor nearby I offered to look over bids and offer my thoughts.
Of the two bidders, one is close enough to cost that I suspect he doesn't really know his job cost.
Other bidder very reputable, price about what I'd expect. One thing that bugs me though, why do people insist on taking weather data from their area and modifying it (lowering design temp) creating higher loss calcs? If you wanna insist on designing heavy, just 100% load, don't create an artificial need. With either a 5 or a 6 ton OP is well served.
I suggested trying to find another bidder, but am confident bidder #2 will do a good job and price is fair (seen their work).

In MI 2 things we get on the cheap are NG and electricity, so closed loop geo around here will usually get payback horizon under 10 years, but would likely be out of the question once tax credits are lifted. Fortunately for me my area is still about 50% propane- geo won't go out of vogue here.
j 

If I can encourage 1 out of 100 folks seeking knowledge to use their own intelligence and ambition to learn and do something for themselves, I'd be happy. I do realize that 99% of folks do like to pay infalted prices for anything as there are always many to tell them they are not smart enough, or it takes decades to learn, etc..

As far as ego, not to hard around here with the 'competition' ()

So let's see some photos of your miracle machine!!  And while you're at it ... how about some proof that your COP is actually 5.6.  I didn't  see your claims for EER ratings, must be 40 or 50 I'll bet!!

Bergy

Posted By junkhound on 28 Mar 2011 02:01 PM
If I can encourage 1 out of 100 folks seeking knowledge to use their own intelligence and ambition to learn and do something for themselves, I'd be happy. I do realize that 99% of folks do like to pay infalted prices for anything as there are always many to tell them they are not smart enough, or it takes decades to learn, etc..

As far as ego, not to hard around here with the 'competition' ()

Junkdog,
I've never paid an "infalted" price in my life!
There is a minority of gadget guys and engineers that look down their nose at people who pay retail and those that serve them.
You might have a shot of being a useful contributor here if you helped with the actual questions vs criticising the ones who do.
Or are you also one of the few that thrive more on the argument than the content?
j

Posted By junkhound on 28 Mar 2011 02:01 PM
If I can encourage 1 out of 100 folks seeking knowledge to use their own intelligence and ambition to learn and do something for themselves, I'd be happy. I do realize that 99% of folks do like to pay infalted prices for anything as there are always many to tell them they are not smart enough, or it takes decades to learn, etc..

As far as ego, not to hard around here with the 'competition' ()

I absolutely love your attitude, man. Keep it coming, do not pay attention to negative comments...

Posted By joe.ami on 29 Mar 2011 08:36 AM

There is a minority of gadget guys and engineers that look down their nose at people who pay retail ...

Don't know 'bout 'gadget guys', but most experienced engineers and technicians have made
the amazing discovery that they can do better financially (and career wise) by spending their
time and effort pursuing their profession -- rather than scrounging in a backyard trash heap.

...the do-everything-by-yourself epoch ended shortly after the discovery of agriculture,

Looby

but most experienced engineers and technicians have made
the amazing discovery that they can do better financially (and career wise) by spending their
time and effort pursuing their profession -- rather than scrounging in a backyard trash heap.

Yeah, but at some point, enough is enough and you're going to retire and then the trash heap becomes the toybox. :-)

deleted by Looby -- attachments problem

Posted By minkia38 on 23 Feb 2011 06:54 PM
Yes, payback would only be a few years, acording to his calculations.....

Let us know how the arrived at this cost-savings? Compared to a conventional Ngas Furnace. ( $1500 to $1700 op savings in favor of geo). You must have a printout of estimated op cost to heat your home with Ngas? Otherwise no estimated op savings could be calculated!

I performed a load calc on this house and found geo could provide all heating/cooling and hot water for ~$1,300 while Nat gas was ~$2,600. With a installed system around $25,000-$30,000 Payback for the price difference could be under 10 years due to tax credits.
Among the problems with new construction in this state is the banks are not eager to lend (particularly when they have a huge inventory of foreclosed homes). They do not percieve geo as value added and many folks don't have the instant equity on new builds to help pay for extras.
In this case the OP Emailed me that he is going with gas.

Well back to the OP. Insulating the house will give you the biggest bang for the buck. Make sure you have lot of insulation under the slab and also insulate outside of the wall studs. 2" of hi den foam on the outside of the walls along with fiberglass inside the cavity will super insulate your space. Save the spray foam for those inaccessible spots.
If your pond will be close to the house and you can go deep enough, that may be your best bet. the slinky would only be an option IMO if you had to do a lot of grading anyways. And it was easy digging. Digging wells may be the best over the long run but can you afford to up front the costs.
With a new house, everyone wants the pretty stuff. The granite and such. But if push comes to shove, building the best building structure first will save you in the long run. In 10 years or less, the granite will get tossed for the next great thing but no one wants to replace their HVAC, insulation, windows and such.

wow, lots of posts since I last checked this!

Anyways, yes, I have TONS of north facing windows, so that had something to do with high energy usage...

Since my original energy consumption esitmates, I have upgraded the windows to a better low E grade Jeld Wen
I also upgraded to 2x6 construction (from 2x4), and will be switching to 2" of cc spray foam, and filling the rest of the cavity with blown in cellulose.

I did decide to go with natural gas heating, but I was later convinced to go back with Geo thermal.
I will be using a 5 ton closed horizontal loop with an Envision unit most likely, split into 2 zones.

Let me know if anyone needs any other info, and ill try to post it!

Thanks for all the replies

Minkia,
What made you switch back to geothermal?

after tax credits, I am only going to have to pay about $4,000 more than a conventional natural gas system, so the payoff will be under 5 years, then the rets is gravy on the top.

I figure that if it doesnt turn out for soe reason, I could always sell the until and get half my $$ back!