Thanks to all for the lively and informative discussion.

In my case I am building a 1200 sq/ft (main floor) plus 1200 sq/ft (walkout basement) on the edge of a small lake north of Kenora in NW Ontario.

My energy sources are limited to oil (last time I checked it was $1.03.9/liter) and electricity (expensive but I don't have those numbers).

I am well situated for a lake loop GSHP (66 ft away from deep water) but find the up front costs and payback period too long to justify.

My plan is to build a well sealed home with either a double offset 2x4 wall on 2x8 sill/top plates and 1 1/2" exterior foam or 2x6 wall with 1 1/2 exterior foam with R60 in the roof; triple pane windows with low e/argon all around.

Many details have yet to be worked out but the more I read and understand the more I'm inclined to think that my heating and cooling costs can be best served with a radiant floor system run off an electric boiler and cooling with a single 1 1/2 ton split system (my brother-in-law uses a system like that in Australia) mounted over the living room windows.

Cooling is a MUCH smaller load here but mandatory (says my wife) for 2 - 3 weeks of hot and muggy weather.

fwiw... the Acadia was a shot in the dark, I had hoped that it would live up to the hype that the Winnipeg Co was spouting last year. It didn't and its now out of the running!

I support your Acadia decision

If you succeed in reducing your load to the extent you plan, then it becomes harder to justify an expensive geo system.

Keeping spouse happy in hot weather is priceless...

If the house can be heated with just a hair dryer, why buy a $20,000 hair dryer?

Kenora,

Given the size of your home and the way you plan to insulate, I think you're well within a Daikin Altherma in terms of supplying enough BTUs, especially with the electric backup. Since your choices are electric or propane, if you go electric resistance, that's COP of 1, but if you go ASHP or GSHP, you're probably in the 3's or higher on a seasonal basis. That's probably justification enough to go with some sort of a heat pump in the long term, as my gut tells me the savings are there. Your best bet is to get the house designed and see the heat loss calc's, and then try to figure out whether it's worthwhile or not.

You mentioned a lake loop... A lake loop is far cheaper to install, and probably in line with the Altherma in price, maybe less, but with higher COPs. I think it's well worth looking at. I'm actually looking into a lake loop here now wtih a cottage property we just picked up, and I'm going to be investigating into the Limnion LIMA-1, since they are only about 2 hours from where I am, to see whether it works or not, and if so, the installation costs can be significantly cheaper on the loop side of things.

Victor
www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350sqft cold climate Net Zero Energy initiative

Had a look at the LIMA-1 in action. Was out at their test facility, can't comment much on their test site setup because of an NDA, but I can say it does work as they have claimed.

The issue, however, I think will be cost. About $10kCAD list price for their unit, supporting up to 5 tons. Savings will be in the install side of it since there's a lot less underwater work, but then you add the heat pump and accessories, it'll end up $20kCAD +/- depending on the size of the heat pump, more if you're going up to 5 tons. It still seems feasible compared to the Altherma, since there's much more output for not much more money (if you need the additional output), and efficiencies will be higher than the Altherma during the heating season.

Victor
www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350sqft cold climate Net Zero Energy initiative

Lake or pond loops are commonly expected to be "far" cheaper sytems, but they frankly save little vs horizontal closed loop as the loops cost more than the digging and the excavator still must come to the site.
J

Victor

For those of us who missed it please post the exact Daikin model you have AND who supplied it.
On the west coast I can't find a supplier.

Thanks

John

Daiken: Barry LaDuke @503-482-9276
[email protected]

On the west coast I can't find a supplier.

John, It is a fairly new unit for North America. My experience has been that installers jump at the chance to put their first Daikin in, so you might want to approach a quality installer and see if they are of the mindset to increase their line capabilities. My lowest bid came from the one who will install their first Daikin because they are so interested in it.

As a contractor in Calif, there is only one rep for Daikin Altherma and that would be www.2hsc.com

Hey Kenora

I would take a second look at the advantages of geothermal , the payback on a new install such as yours is usually relatively short and once installed its like owning a perminent, inexaustable energy supply that is also not subject to inflation ,as 2/3 of your heat will always be free.
I 've installed alot of hp since 91 and live only100 miles from you, done right you will never regret installing it. 
 As to the topic ,ASHP are and always will be crap in Canada

WOW!

Thanks for the link (Victor) and all the information (everyone ).

Kimko are you in Winnipeg? I live there but am building in Kenora; the reason I ask is I would really like to talk to someone local since our little piece of the sub-arctic has numerous challenges. I had pretty much given up the idea of going with a GSHP (lake loop or LIMA-1 given that it was upfront about $20k vs 1/2 that for a less efficient system. The problem, and I know we all know it is the payback period. I will be nearly 60 by the time this system is up and running, I am not sure I can wait till I'm 90 to break even!

Altherma seems non-doable given what I now know (think I know), its at least 2/3 the cost of GSHP and not as efficient AND unproven in this climate; I would need to see one that's been running a few years outside in these temps. It has to be H-E-double hockey sticks on a fan/compressor to run at -30 to -40 for months on end.

It looks like, reluctantly, I am back at the GSHP.

I wonder if Victor could provide me with some more info on the LIMA-1. I thought I would need a large loop spread across the bottom, my neighbor just installed a GSHP (house is twice my size and not nearly as well insulated) and needed a LOT of tubing which was tied together and sunk with about 500 lbs of re-bar to provide weight and a grate of sorts to tie the tubes to. The LIMA-1 seems rather small in comparison. Did I understand that a single unit can support up to 5 tons?

fwiw I am on the west shore of Alcock Lake, that's 6 miles N of Kenora (Ontario, Canada). the loop would sit in 12 - 18 ft of water, the ice regularly gets to 4 ft thick, bottom temps (I'm told) are about 38f - 40f in winter. Does that change things?

Should I start a new thread?

Greetings Kenora,

Noticed your post while browsing this afternoon. I am a member of the Research and Development team for LIMNION. The LIMA-1, as well as our full line up of geothermal products, have been designed and tested under the extreme conditions you have described. We are also located in Ontario, Canada. The back door of our lab opens on to your typical Ontario lake (still frozen solid)...no better place to develop and test lake based geothermal technologies. That said, LIMNION is also well suited for much warmer climates. LIMNIONs are being specified from the Arctic to Australia. Visit our website www.limnion.com or give us a call.

if you can build into the side or a mtn or underground you can really save on heat. just need a periscope to see what is happening outside when underground.