Posted By ICFHybrid on 08 Feb 2011 05:49 PM

ICF Hybrid has no geothermal service, installation, training or ownership experience.

OK. I own five residences, seven if you count small ones. I also own 18 commercial buildings over 20,000 sf each. They all have heating and cooling systems so I might have some experience. I also have advanced university degrees in science and engineering. You can call me "Doc" if you want, but I'd rather you didn't as I haven't been too impressed by people who need you to call them "Doc" or "Gunny" or "Sarge" or "Chief Engineer" or "Skipper" on the Internets. With no offense intended to anyone here who happens to use that a as a screen name, of course. And, I can read a manual. If you think that residential geothermal systems and controls represent some pinnacle of engineering technology, then it just shows how little you actually know.

BTW, I do own a geothermal system and have now installed the field all by my lonesome in the bitchiest weather in recent history. What's next? A one week training course at WTF U?

So, it is your misguided belief that owning residences and buildings with heating systems (not geothermal), degrees (in fields unrelated to geothermal installation, troubleshooting, and repair), and claiming to be able to read a manual (was that a geothermal manual? - you were vague on that point) somehow mystically imparts upon you the ability to provide useful geothermal advise here.  At the same time you tell people to be wary of (your) internet advise, and you do not disclose your lack of geothermal experience and justify it by saying that being upfront about it is not part of the "disclosure requirement" of this forum.  How convenient.

Since you don't believe that "residential geothermal systems and controls represent some pinnacle of engineering technology", and since you can read a manual, have degrees, own stuff, yadda, yadda, yadda, why is it again that you have not been able to offer any sound advise to a single homeowner with a geothermal problem?

Something is just not right with your posts.  We'll let the readers with "trees" around their houses decide for themselves if your advise is valuable.  I will do my part and point out your lack of "relevant" experience.

Oh, I almost forgot, you may have dug a ditch and perhaps laid some pipe when it was cold outside.  Pros, move over, there is a new gun in town.  Also, regarding your quote "The Lady Doth Protest too Much" - right back atcha. 

Are these personal attacks really necessary?

Posted By Princeton N.J. on 08 Feb 2011 04:39 PM
As the homeowner who posted the original question, I'm happy to disclose the fact that I work as a school administrator and know nothing about geothermal -- beyond what I've learned trying to figure out why my system isn't working as I had hoped it would. And I'm learning a lot from this thread -- people are very generous with their time and experience. It's much appreciated!

I guess what it looks like so far is that the geosystem is actually working pretty well, but your house is an energy hog and loosing too much heat....

Tell us a little about the duct systems. What are the dimensions of the supply and return ducts?
Where is it located?
j

Posted By arkie6 on 08 Feb 2011 11:08 PM
Are these personal attacks really necessary?

This is a fair question.  Since every OP with a concern, question or a problem does not keep up with the qualifications of those giving advise and opinions from other threads, it would be nice if everyone that replies would be honest and forthcoming to the OP by letting them know the true limit of their experience (as many of us do) so the homeowner is not misled.  My reply was meant to point out the lack of ICFHybrid's "relevant" experience despite his claims to the contrary.

I don't know the dimensions of the ducts, but I believe they are standard: running through the attic, we have two main trunk lines, with flex duct offshoots. It's all pretty new, too. The attic is insulated. But the heat does blow through diffusers placed in the celing, which his very ineffecient because our ceilings are high and heat rises. So I know that's part of the problem.

For the person who asked, our electrical provider is PSE&G.

For the person who asked, our electrical provider is PSE&G.

You might want to call and see if they offer any energy efficiency programs. Utilities often have funds available for *FREE* energy testing, insulation and sealing.

Great idea. I will!

Just make sure you get an experienced person to do the work. If not done correctly the first time, it may be more costly to redo the work.

Posted By Princeton N.J. on 09 Feb 2011 10:17 AM
I don't know the dimensions of the ducts, but I believe they are standard: running through the attic, we have two main trunk lines, with flex duct offshoots. It's all pretty new, too. The attic is insulated. But the heat does blow through diffusers placed in the celing, which his very ineffecient because our ceilings are high and heat rises. So I know that's part of the problem.

As one who specializes in airflow "issues" (mainly cooling in my area), everytime I see "flex" mentioned in the same thread as heating/cooling problems I want to get specifics on the installation of the ductwork.  Many duct designs use the "rule of thumb" .1 as the default friction rate to size ductwork.  Many times flex duct will yield .05 friction rate which requires the designer to install larger ducting to offset the increased friction of the flex duct.  Your system may be pulling every bit of heat from the ground possible and the unit running exactly as it is supposed to but if you are lacking the means to efficiently deliver the heated air it will never work as intended.  My method for troubleshooting your problem, after all equipment has been verified to be properly working, no huge thermal loss found, all the low hanging fruit picked etc., would be this.

1.   Examine your duct install and calculate the real friction rate/100 ft. of duct.
2.   Measure the total external static pressure of the system to determine real airflow and if any issues exist on the supply or return sides.
3.  Measure the supply air temperature at a point close to the furnace and then at each supply duct to determine how many btus are lost.  Also do this on the return side.
4.   Verify that all seams are sealed with mastic and not just duct taped.  Make certain all ducting is sealed, especially any returns that go thru unconditioned areas.

You will probably have to contract with a knowledgeable HVAC professionaly who can perform the friction rate and static pressure calcs.  Seemingly small losses over an entire system can add up to huge efficiency losses in a larger install such as yours. 

I tried to attach an article from one of my HVAC contractor publications but it exceeded the permitted size...it essentially restates eveything above but in a much more literary acceptable form.

Princeton N.J.,

We apologize for not responding sooner as we just found your post. In reference to your utility bills, we will be more than happy to look into your concerns. Could you please provide your model number, serial number, and the name of your installing contractor? Also, could you please provide actual copies of the last two year’s utility bills, and a copy of the WaterFurnace Energy Analysis provided by your installing contractor? If you do not wish to post this information publicly, you are more than welcome to send us a private message.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Sure is nice to WF posting on the forums. Thanks.

Try contacting CMS Geothermal in Bordentown NJ they are geopro dealers.

The number is 609-510-4924 Ask for Charles. He is the most knowledgeable.

After the original installer proved less-than-adequate, we switched to CMS for all our servicing and maintenance. I agree with you -- they are a first-rate group, and Charles is great. He is really an expert on all this and leads a great team at CMS. It's through them that we've come to understand that all our problems are related to having a short loop. CMS has been helping us do all we can to overcome the situation. But in their opinion (and Charles'), nothing is really going to work correctly until we drill another bore hole.

Posted By Princeton N.J. on 09 Feb 2011 08:00 PM
After the original installer proved less-than-adequate, we switched to CMS for all our servicing and maintenance. I agree with you -- they are a first-rate group, and Charles is great. He is really an expert on all this and leads a great team at CMS. It's through them that we've come to understand that all our problems are related to having a short loop. CMS has been helping us do all we can to overcome the situation. But in their opinion (and Charles'), nothing is really going to work correctly until we drill another bore hole.

Then you are supporting 8 tons of heatpumps with an 8-9 tons loop. May be it is not the most favorable thought here for you, but given your house size, that is a huge load. None of your problems will go away by drilling another hole, the pumps might work 5% more efficient by raising the the EWT from 25 to 30 degrees, but they will still have a similar run time to put the BTUs in your house. Thus your operating costs will not go down! The problem is in the house from the data you have given us, not in the loop primarily.

Posted By docjenser on 09 Feb 2011 09:46 PM
Then you are supporting 8 tons of heatpumps with an 8-9 tons loop. May be it is not the most favorable thought here for you, but given your house size, that is a huge load. None of your problems will go away by drilling another hole, the pumps might work 5% more efficient by raising the the EWT from 25 to 30 degrees, but they will still have a similar run time to put the BTUs in your house. Thus your operating costs will not go down! The problem is in the house from the data you have given us, not in the loop primarily.

It is my belief that the problem is not the equipment or the loop.  If this was installed with a razor thin margin for error, any problem will be magnified.

This is a direct quote from Manual D Residential Duct Systems, Section 3 first para.  "...It is not uncommon for poor heating and cooling performance to be attributed to insufficient equipment size when the actual problem was caused by a restrictive duct system...."  Emphasis added.

To me, either excess btu's are being lost (house issue) or not enough btu's are being transferred from the equipment to the house (duct issue)

So you mean that if everything were 5% more efficient, the cost of running the system would be the same? Wouldn't 5% increased efficiency translate into smoother operation (fewer lock-outs) and less expense? And if our loop-to-ton ratio is OK, I wonder why shorter loops aren't more common, because they do save a lot of money at the outset. I'd appreciate your thoughts on that. Your point is very interesting to me, because I would like to think that my basic system is workable, if not idea. Thx.

Why don't more installers offer a 'short-loop' option? It's much cheaper, and if it might be OK in our circumstance, wouldn't it work in others as well? Because when I read things about geo online, the standard statement seems to be "125 feet-per-ton, minimum."