Ouch! 5000KWH

Get all the information you can from him and post the results...

1) Where you live
2) Heat loss/gain calculations for your home
3) Brand, size (model) and type of heat pump
4) Type of loop field (open/closed/vertical/horizontal) size and design parameters
5) Average cost/Kwh of electricity and consumption
6) Entering and leaving air temperatures (EAT, LAT) measured immediately upstream and downstream of the heat pump
7) Entering and leaving water temperatures (EWT, LWT) measured at the heat pump(s)
8) Percent of load to be covered by geo and balance point
9) Installers assessment of your systems operation.
10) Projected operating costs, actual operating cost and previous heating and cooling costs

Thanks!  I will get all this informaiton and repost.  I have the installer coming out on Friday to assess what the issue is.  To be honest, I think we are drawing on pure electric and not utilizing the geo system at all.  Can I go back to the installer and try to get them to reimburse me for the high electricity bills since they obviously didn't install and configure this?

Thanks,

Posted By OhioBuckeye on 23 Feb 2011 10:18 AM
Thanks!  I will get all this informaiton and repost.  I have the installer coming out on Friday to assess what the issue is.  To be honest, I think we are drawing on pure electric and not utilizing the geo system at all.  Can I go back to the installer and try to get them to reimburse me for the high electricity bills since they obviously didn't install and configure this?

Thanks,

I think discussion of retitution is a little out of turn before we discover the trouble, but generally warranties extend to the repair only.
Will a reputable company try to make it right by you? Absolutely.
Make sure you aren't the cause of the increase with any changes of behavior (i.e. higher heating set points etc.).....also if this is a horizontal system, it may perform better next year after soil settles.
joe

The company that originally installed my Geo unit came out yesterday.  I wasn't very happy with their explanation as I felt they were blaming me for most of my high energy bills.  I have a dual zone system.  My main level is 2400 sqft while the upstairs which is over my garage is 770 sq ft.  I originally had that zone off.  My stairs going to the upper level are very large and wide, my thermostate is close in proximity to my stair case.  He was explaining to me that since the second zone was set to off that it was cold up there so the main geo unit could not keep up.  Maybe that is so but I explained to him at the KWH usage of 5,000??  That just didn't seem to make sense to me. 

This is a new construction house so he was also trying to blame the basement as he was trying to explain that the concrete floor was still curing therefore allowing a lot of moisture into the house.  The technician was here for almost 3 hours in which he tried to convince me he only made some minor adjustments to the unit.  I can't see how that could be true.  He explained to me that the water pressure in the line was fine and the water temperature was 28 degrees which is normal for this area.  Seems rather cold but the system is new. 

I do have a horizontal closed system and I have read that the system is not extremely efficient the first year but becomes extremely efficient the second year as the soil settles around the loop lines.  I explained to the technician that my geo system is running in auxillary power for 90% of the time in which he disagreed with me again and again.  He said that couldn't be so.  Well, he said he increased the flow pressure within the line and it should take a couple of weeks to even itself out.  He also suggested we turn on the second zone even if it is set to 65 so the unit doesn't have to work so hard cooling the main level as we were losing so much heat to the upstairs. 

Well, the second zone has been on for a couple of days now and it is set to 66 degrees.  I have now lost a couple of pounds from running downstairs everytime the unit turns on.  The unit, even after he left is running mainly on auxillary power, it does cycle from stage 1 to stage 2 then to auxillary over and over.  Then the unit stops working.  Then after a few minutes it turns on stage 1, then stage 2 and then auxillary. 

Something is just not right, yet the installation company is blaming me.  Any suggestions I would appreciate it.  Also, I am running a ClimateMaster Tranquility 27 Two Stage with a horizontal closed system.  It seems to me the unit can not keep up with the thermostat set to 68.  I would expect the system to run on Stage 1 for most of the time and then cycle on to Stage 2 if necessary.  This unit should never cycle up to auxillary.

Thoughts/suggestions?

I tracked my KWH usage for one hour.  For one hour, I used 6KwH which for one day we are using 144KWH.  That in my opinion based on what I have read is way too high.  I also tracked my stages:

3:28 Stage 1 kicked on
3:33 Stage 2 kicked on
3:38 Stage 3 Aux kicked on
3:46 unit kicked off.

3:57 Stage 1
4:02: Stage 2
4:07 Stage 3 Aux
4:10 unit Kicked off

4:17: stage 1

Stage 1 and Stage 2 always run in 5 minute.  This is not programmed correctly???

Thanks

The thermostat is what controls the stages.  What brand and model of tstat do you have/

"Well, he said he increased the flow pressure within the line and it should take a couple of weeks to even itself out."

This is total BS!!  If you add pressure to the loop field, the entire loop is pressurized at the same time.

Bergy

While your getting the tstat brand and model... take a look at the display and tell us what is happening to the temperature as the system is running. (although some tstat lie about the temp..)

The tstat is the VisionPro TH8000 Series from Honeywell. I am looking at the display while it runs and the temperature stays at 68. We have the unit on permanent hold and the fan is set to circ.

Is it possible there is an issue with the tstat sending the wrong information to the control board?  If there is an issue, does anyone have a potential hunch in what it could be?  If there is an issue, how do I diagnosis that the tstat is my problem?  Should I request for the tstat to be replaced?

To be more specific my tstat is the TH8321u1006 version of the 8000 series.

Posted By OhioBuckeye on 26 Feb 2011 11:33 PM
If there is an issue, how do I diagnosis that the tstat is my problem?

First, check the wiring connections (at the t-stat and heat pump ends)
against the installation manuals -- OR make a note of which wire colors
are connected to which terminals on each end, and post it here.

The 5 minute intervals between upstages lead me to wonder if the stat is not configured for the type of heating system installed. It is common to stage sections of electric resistance strip heat 5 minutes apart, but not heat pumps.

There are 30+ installation parameters set during thermostat installation. You could step through them and post results here for analysis.

There is a sequence of touch pad taps to access setup. Touch and release system and then the 2nd and 4th (counting from left) blank squares along the bottom of the display. Parameters and values will appear. Record all of them for review - I recommend not changing anything for now.

Here is a link to an install manual: http://www.completeheating.ca/manuals/VisionPro%208000.pdf

WARNING: This info is not intended for use by consumer / homeowner - incorrect settings may damage system, void warranties, cause tooth decay or slow planetary rotation, etc.

Thank you! I will review the settings and post.  Based on opinion/reviews how is this tstat?  Is this a recommended tstat or should I purchase and have a better one installed? 

Installer Setup Number     Installer Setup Name        Setting
0120         Date     20
0130         Date     11
0140         Date     2
0150         Date     27
0160         Schedule Options   4
0170         System Type Selection    12
0190         Changeover Valve-O/B    0
0200         Backup Heat Source        0
0220         Cycles Per hour (cph) for 1st stage compressor    3
0230         Cycles Per hour (cph) for 2nd stage                     3
0260         Cycles per hour for 3rd stage                              9
0270         Cycles per hour for EM Heat                                9
0280         Continuous Backlight                                          0
0300         Changeover                                                       0
0320         Temperature Indication Scale                              0
0330         Daylight Savings Time                                       2
0340         Remote Temperature Sensor                               0
0380         Indoor Dehumidification                                     0
0500         Furnace Change Reminder                                  0
0510         Humidifier Pad Replacement                                0
0520         UV Lamp Replacement                                        0
0530         Adaptive Intelligent Recovery                              1
0540         Number of Periods                                              4
0580        Minimum Compressor Off Time                             5
0600        Heat Temperature Range Stop                              90
0610        Cool Temperature Range Stop                              50
0640        Clock Format                                                      12
0650        Extended Fan On time Heat                                 0
0660        Extended Fan on Time Cool                                  0
0670        Keypad Lockout                                                   0
0680        Temperature Control in Heat                                 2
0690        Temperature control in Cool                                  2
0700        Temperature Display Offset                                   0

A properly sized systems should run mostly continuously on extremely cold days with auxiliary occasionaly contributing.
A unit that cycles off should not be employing aux.
I would start by programming your thermostat for fewer CPH's for stage 1 and 2 and many for 3.
j

Beside the CPH, you could also try turning the fan ON all the time. I'm wondering if when the system turns on if there is a 'large' temp drop due to cold air falling down from the upstairs?

My tstat is located in a somewhat 'dead air' spot and every time the heat turned on it would stir up the air just enough that the geo would run in stage1 for 5 mins and drop into stage 2... But in my case the system continued to run in stage1/2 until it reached the set temperature. (But I also have a option on my tstat to lock out stage 3 for 60+ mins before calling for stage 3) I fixed my problem by keeping the fan running 24x7 in the winter time.

One assumption that I'm making is that your Geo system stage1/2 is really producing some amount of heat. If you going to be around the house you could turn off the circuit breaker(s) to your aux heat and ensure the Geo keeps up with the load. (assuming outside temps are now > the aux balance point)

REMEMBER to turn the breaker(s) back ON... (you don't want to leave the house for an extended period of time during the winter without the Aux being on. If the compressor would happened to go into lock out mode you would have no heat in the house at all... not a good thing in the dead of winter)

I would change 680 to less aggressive (Temperature Control in Heat to #1). This may help reduce aux heat usage. I like fewer CPH as well for 1st and 2nd stage.

Before I go off changing my tstat settings, I want to make sure I have everything down.  Change 0220 and 0230 to what number/setting, 1 or something.    Change 0680 to 1 and change the fan on continuous?  I am having some condensation issues around my cold air return which is close to my tstate.  I am getting very frustrated that the installer seems to only be troubleshooting the geo and not necessarily checking the tstat, though in their defense I didn't shadow the technician so maybe he did. 

Could this be a possibility that my Honeywell TrueZone panel is set up to where the t-stats are not controlling equip and therefore is setup on time staging.  My geo runs every five minutes on stage 1 and stage 2 all day long before switching to aux.  I am extremely frustrated!

I am going to call them AGAIN on Monday and have them come back to the house.  Now that I have some more detailed information it might help them.  I will give my builder a call as well asking for detailed information on my loop size.  I am hoping this is not an issue where the lines are undersized for my house.

Thanks!