Posted By ChrisEByers on 11 Jul 2011 09:35 PM
Eric,
Very interested in your quotes and the price of geo thermal in Dallas! What were the prices of the quotes for the geo + drilling install? Thank you for your help!

Chris

Chris, if you're in the Dallas area, contact Eldon Hampton, owner, Geothermal Distribution, in Rockwall.  You can get his phone number from the WaterFurnace Dealer Locator page ( http://dealers.waterfurnace.com/waterfurnace/ ).  He's at the top of the list, as he's a WaterFurnace Geopro Master Dealer.  Highly capabable, does a lot of installs in Dallas area, and has strong reputable following.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Bill

All,
Thanks again for a remarkably useful discussion. I've been keeping my poorly-informed mouth shut and just sitting back and listening all this time, but I want to say that I have accumulated quite a bit better understanding of several topics (especially insulation despite this being the geo heat pump subforum) and a whole list of things I need to educate myself better about (and a few useful pdfs that have been helpfully linked along the way.) I am very happy to have discovered Green Building Talk at this point.

One item of clarification on the moisture issue; some of the points made have assumed a vented attic, and it is my understanding that the installer intended to seal the attic. This might be my misunderstanding, so it is one of the clarifications I intend to ask him for. I'm going to finish doing my homework before contacting him again, though.

Chris,
I don't have the exact number in front of me, but it was roughly 15K for a 2 ton installation, price including all drilling, equipment and installation. Bear in mind this was to be a relatively small unit, as I am in a small house.

Per Dana's request:

On the 7T house I think I'm going to "wimp out" and go with 4T. Two factors - one family member is manic about AC, and they do a lot of cooking. My load software defaults to 1200 btuh from a kitchen, but roasting a chicken starting late afternoon on a design day will result in quite a bit more than 1200 Btuh at a time when the system is maxed out.

Thanks Eric,

$15K is amazing, I have been quoted $36-40K for a 2.5-3 ton system!!! Includes all drilling, duct work, equipment and dehumidifier. I realize when looking for an installer skill, proper knowledge and experience is more important but jeez...I didn't expect such a large range in price.

Bill,

Thanks as well, I will look into them...

Posted By ChrisEByers on 23 Jul 2011 12:08 PM
Thanks Eric,

$15K is amazing, I have been quoted $36-40K for a 2.5-3 ton system!!! Includes all drilling, duct work, equipment and dehumidifier. I realize when looking for an installer skill, proper knowledge and experience is more important but jeez...I didn't expect such a large range in price.

This is exactly why Curt suggested to you that a simple numbers comparison is not that useful.
It sounds like you need a total duct system where OP needed modifications.
We don't know if yours is a new home or retrofit. New homes require more duct work (i.e. bath fans etc.).
Yours comes with a dehumi worth thousands and an additional ground loop worth thousands.
since you don't know what you don't know, you may want to get multiple bids from folks whose references check out vs price compare to a vastly different system over the internet. In that way you will narrow down the going rate for your job.
jeez

joe

Joe,

I get your point and fully understand that it is important to compare apples to apples. However, when one does not even know what fruit is, tasting any fruit will help in understanding what an apple may be like.

It would be impossible to run across someone who is installing the exact system I need in the same location, same house, same load, soil, orientation, etc. Yet knowing what it will cost to do jobs that require less than mine and maybe jobs that require more, averaged over several others in my area, will at least give boundaries for an acceptable quote.

So yes, numbers are always useful to those who know how to use them.

Posted By ChrisEByers on 23 Jul 2011 12:08 PM
Thanks Eric, 

I realize when looking for an installer skill, proper knowledge and experience is more important but jeez...I didn't expect such a large range in price.

My apologies then. This comment sounded more like someone flying off the handle about the price of apples compared to the price of oranges.

(I must confess I don't get how "tasting any fruit helps you understand what an apple is like")

It is ridiculous to say that those numbers by themselves offer any value. Without qualifiers for the price someone who professes ignorance to the distinctions can't possibly gleen anything even if they know how to use numbers.

Try this on, I have 6 active jobs and 2 bids out right now:

Approx US dollars
198,000
65,000
50,000
25,000
24,000
23,000
22,000
10,000

Therefore my average sale is around 30,000 right?
Or should we throw out the high and the low making the average closer to 34K?
Neither is my average sale of around 20K but one is part of the heating system for an 18000sf house, one is a replacement of existing geo, some of the others have duct work, some are vertical looped....without clarification they do not lead you to an answer, even though you tasted some fruit.
j

While I vehemently disagree with HVAC-TALK's Nazi approach to pricing discussions within forums, this thread confirms the lunacy of trying to compare apples, oranges and Porterhouse steaks.

It's all about the scope of the project...if each proposal works off a common scope than comparison is valid. If not, all bets are off.

Most of us don't really make that much money off each job. We cover our material costs, set a chunk aside to pay our crew and hope there is enough left over to pay ourselves enough to make the mortgage and invest in everything else needed to ensure the company is in top form to take on the next job.

Joe,

Apology accepted!


"(I must confess I don't get how 'tasting any fruit helps you understand what an apple is like')"

Let me help you out.
Let's assume you have never had a pepper before but are curious about what a  Bhut Jolokia chili pepper (the hottest in the world) tastes like. In order to get some idea you can infer what the Bhut Jolokia (apple) tastes like by eating a jalapeno pepper (similar fruit). A bit of clarification, when I was using fruit as an example I was referring only to geothermal prices.


"It is ridiculous to say that those numbers by themselves offer any value" 

By themselves, yes this is very true. Yet if you had read the entire thread then you would know what those numbers include.


"someone who professes ignorance to the distinctions can't possibly gleen anything" 

Are we reading the same thread?? This is not what I said at all.


"Therefore my average sale is around 30,000 right?"

No, your average sale is around 50,000. 198k+65k+50k+25k+24k+23k+22k+10k = 417k/8 = 52,000


"Or should we throw out the high and low making the average closer to 34k?"

Ok, but wrong again, your average would be 26,000.


"without clarification they do not lead you to an answer"

Once again, what the price included has been clarified in the thread. So yes, it does lead me to an answer because I asked for the price of a system (or parts of a system) similar to what my project requires. I did not ask someone about their quote for a "heating system for an 18000sf house", that would be ridiculous as I do not have an 18,000 sqft house.

In conclusion, I stand by my previous point...
"So yes,  numbers are always useful to those who know how to use them."

Chris,
touche on my bad math on the 8 bid average, but you may want to think again on your 6 bid average correction (looks like you divided by 8).

Your first comment about someone else's bid glosses over the requirements of your job quickly while suggesting (jeez) heavy mark-up for installer skill.

Perhaps I misunderstand, but it sounds like an ignorant assessment of different job requirements.

If you want real numbers, find out cost per ton of loop installation, cost per opening of duct installation (geo duct work please not scorched air code minimum), cost per circuit of electrical installation......this are numbers that could be used to compare.

I see you modified you fruit scenario to "similar fruit" that makes a little more sense but again the price that you honed in on was not a similar project (fruit) to yours.

j

Indeed, touche...we'll have to do this again sometime Joe.