I'm a WF dealer. I'd be really reluctant to ding an existing client for labor for a coil replacement just two years out, unless the client insisted upon a ridiculously difficult to service installation location (I have a couple of those). I'd eat the delta.

OTOH, if I was brought in on another's install for warranty work, I'd quote normal T&M and credit the WF allowance after it was received.

In general, labour warranties come out of equipment markup. If someone buys a product off the internet any installer is less likely to honour any warranty unless the install cost is high enough. If someone buys only on lowest price, the installer has to determine if it is in his best interest to GIVE away some of his labour. He may do it or he may not, regardless of the manufacturers contribution. I don't warrant any component I install if I didn't buy it. I warrant my labour but that is a different thing.

.....even worse, WF claims the 10 year labor warranty is "Standard", but the dealer can opt for 5.
I've always complimented WF quality but quarreled with some of their marketing strategy.

FWIW, most air source systems come with a 10 year PARTS ONLY warranty. A labor warranty is for sale at a substantial extra charge. WF provides a labor warranty within default pricing; dealer may de-select it for a lower first cost.

Folks always attempt to hold a geo warranty in comparison to an auto warranty though there are few similarities. Given that the price between a car and a geo are more similar than a furnace and a geo (at first glance) it seems a reasonable assumption.
The problem is a geo heat pump itself is not that much more than a similarly high end conventional furnace and air conditioner. The real price disparity comes from the infrastructure such as ground loops, electrical up grades, sheet metal upgrades etc.; none of which the geo manufacturers profit from. When you compare a heat pump only change out price (in my AO) of loosely $10,000 (obviously depending on size location and other factors) it is not significantly higher than a high end furnace and A/C change out price of loosely $8,000. With that in mind the geo warranties are generally quite superior.

Bill,

Thank you for posting that.   That was well worth reading.  The industry will not change unless forced to.

I have been promoting energy conservation including geothermal since the 1970's.  A lot of my projects have geothermal.  We started with pump and dump systems and now specify closed loop.  No serious problems yet.  Just one closed system that did not perform up to expectations.  Although I will continue to specify geothermal, I am constantly looking for something less costly and better.

Posted By Alton on 28 Jan 2013 07:19 PM

Bill,

Thank you for posting that.  ...

Although I will continue to specify geothermal, I am constantly looking for something less costly and better.

Alton, you're welcome.

I believe geo market opportunities at the smaller end (1 - 5, maybe even upwards to 6 or 7 tons) of the residential HVAC market are slowly eroding, and will continue to do so.  This is because pretty significant efficiency gains are occuring for alternative heat pump technologies.  At the same time, the installed cost of installing the condenser portion (water loop) of geo-based heat pump systems is staying flat and/or slowly rising (until someone figures out how to dramatically reduce the labor cost).

I see three stages of major efficiency advancements.

One is already here, and that's mini-split systems.  I think over the next decade mini-splits are going to substantially eliminate the otherwise cost effectiveness of 1-3, maybe 4 ton geo systems.  Even at new construction time, where the economics of geo heat pump systems work the best, the numbers now for smaller systems are moving toward clearly favoring mini-splits.

The next stage is the final elimination of on-off systems.  Everything becomes variable.  Variable heating/cooling capacity and variable delivery of the heat/cooling, all matched to whatever the current instantaneous conditions are.  Some of the most advanced mini-splits are starting to 'knock on this door' here.  Here, in the non-shoulder seasons, the HVAC system is running 7/24, appropriately and perfectly matched to whatever the structure's instantaneous heating/cooling load presents.

This second stage is tough, though, in cooling dominated climates, because solutions for good humidity control are elusive.

This leads to the third stage coming, where ambient temperature and RH become separately and independently controlled variables.  For example, I'm involved with some measurement and verification work with a firm working on using a liquid desiccant to accomplish this.  Along with expected 50 - 70% lower operating costs.

I think the larger sized residential geo market, and particularly the commercial geo market will be preserved through the coming two stages of heat pump advances.  Here the cost of the condenser (water loop) can be more readily spread across the total cost of installation, from an economics point of view.

But the third stage, with 50-70% lower operating costs along with separately controllable RH, using (what's now laboratory) techniques such as liquid desiccant, may prove to be able to more cost effective than the biggest of geo heat pump system.

Overall, I think it's wise, for all geo focused HVAC professionals, to be constantly looking for something less costly and better.  I think it's happening now for the smaller end of geo heat pump systems (mini-splits), I think as time progresses less costly advances will further erode into traditional geo heat pump markets, and eventually (probably at least a decade) dramatically lower cost and features (i.e. easy RH control) will make any sized geo system more costly and less capable.

Parenthetically, some manufacturers, like WaterFurnace, are keeping up at the moment with the performance improvements being shown by mini-splits.  Witness their latest product line-up.  But these companies have got a lot of work in front of them on the cost front, such that I don't see how mini-splits won't just take over in the next few years at least the 1 - 2, maybe 3 ton heat pump technology market.

Best regards,

Bill

Bill,

I appreciate you sharing your insights.  HVAC systems, especially geo, have become a major cost in building a home.  I am at the point that I am weighing the cost of geo against super insulation and photovoltaics to arrive at a zero energy home.  One project is under construction now.  Only time will tell which way is the best for spending the budget.

I substantially agree with what Bill has written.

The only major barriers to minisplits are appearance and inability to serve smaller rooms such as baths and walk in closets. I hope to see mini heads in the 2000-4000 btuH range.

There is a movement to manage small room loads via ventilation only, but that will require a major leap of faith and particular caution with construction details.

Variable refrigerant flow systems are gaining acceptance in commercial applications and may come into higher end homes. They could be geo-based, but advances in controls for air source systems will continue to erode geo's operating cost advantage in many climates.

I doubt you are going to see mini heads from too many manufacturers as the engineering just does not favor them. 2K - 4K BTU is space heater territory. If you have a heating problem in your baths and closets, you can either improve the insulation, sealing and windows so the heat loss is less or you can add a source like in-floor radiant which is ideal for bathrooms or a wall space heater. Both can be timed to reduce the impact of using straight resistance heat.

New construction can and should be done such that bathroom and closet heating are not an issue and I know numerous people who have retrofitted their leaky old farmhouses with single, or at most, two heads.

An interesting thing seen locally is that high end and celebrity homes have been yanking out their double and triple geo systems and installing the variable refrigerant flow air source systems like the Daikin VRV units.

Bill has brought up before the issue of who "owns" the warranty and I think the conversation missed a critical point.
Warranties require the intervention of a professional who is familiar with the product to be honored. This avoids a homeowner changing parts til he gets the right one (if there is a failure). It also avoids replacement of parts if nothing is wrong with the heat pump (i.e. failure caused by poor water flow).
Very few appliance warranties permit you to order parts without going through an "authorized" contractor, most heat pumps will allow any contractor if "authorized" one is not available and competence is demonstrated.
A warranty is a legal obligation of the manufacturer to provide something under certain parameters. That means the consumer has obligations to follow certain procedure as well.

ICF missed my point, perhaps because it is cold most places other than Florida this time of year.

My request for 2k-4k Btuh minisplit heads is to address small room COOLING, not heating.

Our Director of Customer Support has left a message for Hitch. We have also been in contact with the contractor and are working to resolve this issue. Once we have more information we will re-post.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Hmm...I guess we digressed a bit!

Posted By engineer on 12 Feb 2013 08:16 AM
Hmm...I guess we digressed a bit!

Looks to me like Hitch abandoned the conversation after the first post.

It wasn't my intent to abandon the conversation, although I certainly haven't posted any follow ups.  I've been stopping in and reading the replies and very much appreciate the information which has been shared.  Some of the information shared was not very relevant to my situation (people considering DIY and/or internet purchases, other types of products), but I think it's a good thing to have on the board - for others that come along.  The thread did veer off the path a bit.  I've seen people on boards who will direct a post (sort of a wrist-slap) to those who do so.  I don't tend to do that, so I just kept reading.  It's all good information for people who come here looking for it - that's what led me to this board.

In any event, I did receive a message from WF.  I'll get in touch with them and see where it leads.