It is always enough power to push enough water through the entire loopfield

~20 watts/ton? Bill is using 130+ watts/ton (presumably with no antifreeze) and I'd be interested if he could actually achieve 20 and get his overall COP closer to rated values.

See below for just how far off ISO COP values can be from reality once you attach complete loops and real ducts.

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/building_america/ground_sourcehp_greenmax.pdf

your link didn't work for me jon. Anyway we know that delivery systems whether water or duct consume energy that's one of the reasons ductless systems won't perform as well when ducted.

Posted By docjenser on 17 Jun 2013 12:22 AM

... Under the old ARI standard, this energy input for circulation pumps was not included in the calculation of the total energy input, and the standard specifies the water flow rate that results in a 5.6 °C (10.0 °F) temperature change across the heat exchanger. Under the new ISO standard ...

Some examples are as follows:
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/cont..._(310).pdf
http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/LC363.pdf 

I must say, docjenser you are a very helpful person!  Much appreciate the contribution above - I wasn't aware that geo manufacturers are currently computing their COP and EER specs to include comprehension of blower fan and pumping motors energy.

I did go to the cited references (looks like Johnson Controls is second sourcing geo from WaterFurnace, BTW) and read them carefully.  Looks like I need to implement a more advanced calculation in WEL units for clients who want real time reporting of EER and COP.

Many thanks!

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By docjenser
Under the old ARI standard, this energy input for circulation pumps was not included in the calculation of the total energy input

Per http://geoheat.oit.edu/ghp/survival.pdf:

The major difference in the newer ISO rating is that the pumping penalties (used
in the older ARI ratings)along with penalties for fan power (external to the unit) have been removed. This
has had the result of raising the performance values compared to the older rating ARI system

Above is a little misleading, but ARI included more pumping energy, not none.

Posted By jonr on 17 Jun 2013 01:41 PM

Posted By docjenser
Under the old ARI standard, this energy input for circulation pumps was not included in the calculation of the total energy input

Per http://geoheat.oit.edu/ghp/survival.pdf:

The major difference in the newer ISO rating is that the pumping penalties (used
in the older ARI ratings)along with penalties for fan power (external to the unit) have been removed. This
has had the result of raising the performance values compared to the older rating ARI system

Above is a little misleading, but ARI included more pumping energy, not none.

The performance standard AHRI/ASHRAE/ISO 13256-1 became effective January 1, 2000 and replaces ARI Standards 320, 325, and 330. This new standard has three major categories: Water Loop (comparable to ARI 320), Ground Water (ARI 325), and Ground Loop (ARI 330). Although these standards (ARI and ISO) are similar there are some differences. So a study was conducted by the National Institute of Standards and Technology with a grant from the Department of Energy to test the same equipment via those 2 different standards. Equipment was tested with and without air ducts installed. ISO cooling energy efficiency ratio (EER) with and without ductwork units were 4.5% higher and 3.9 % lower than the ARI, respectively. ISO heating coefficient of performance (COP) for the ducted units were 6.2 % higher and for the unducted units 1.0 % lower than the ARI, respectively. Meaning that the new rating improved the efficiency rating by 4.5% in heating and 3.9% in cooling for ducted heatpumps. In unducted systems, the newer rating system actually penalized heatpumps by 1-3.9% lesser performance. This data suggests that the difference between the systems mostly comes from the testing conditions not accounting for the energy used by the blower to overcome the resistance of the ductwork, which indeed is the flaw of the new rating. The study can be accessed at: http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build01/PDF/b01114.pdf

Posted By jonr on 17 Jun 2013 10:17 AM

It is always enough power to push enough water through the entire loopfield

~20 watts/ton? Bill is using 130+ watts/ton (presumably with no antifreeze) and I'd be interested if he could actually achieve 20 and get his overall COP closer to rated values.

See below for just how far off ISO COP values can be from reality once you attach complete loops and real ducts.

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/building_america/ground_sourcehp_greenmax.pdf

We are down to 40w/ton for loopfield pumping using DC variable speed pumps. Similar power consumption for the ECM fan.

That DC pump saves considerable power. (Wilo Stratus?)

Is there a DC variable speed pump that will fit into my climatemaset flow station that now houses (2) UP26-99 pumps?

Right now I use one pump during stage 1 call, and 2 pumps during stage 2 to gain some power savings. My unit runs mostly in 1st stage. I get about 9 gpm with one pump and about 15 gpm with 2 pumps on my 4T TT049 unit. I have 3 vert bores at 260' each run in parallel.

Could do that with one DC vari speed pump?
Will it fit my existing pump station or will I need to start over so to speak. I want to avoid a loop purge if possible. Could I just cap the existing pump ports on the climatemaster and mount the new pump inline to the TT unit? Then I could just local purge.

Can I program it increase flow during stage 2 call?

Not trying to high jack this thread, but seems on topic. Thanks.

Posted By chrisbiker on 18 Jun 2013 03:29 PM
That DC pump saves considerable power. (Wilo Stratus?)

Is there a DC variable speed pump that will fit into my climatemaset flow station that now houses (2) UP26-99 pumps?

Right now I use one pump during stage 1 call, and 2 pumps during stage 2 to gain some power savings. My unit runs mostly in 1st stage. I get about 9 gpm with one pump and about 15 gpm with 2 pumps on my 4T TT049 unit. I have 3 vert bores at 260' each run in parallel.

Could do that with one DC vari speed pump?
Will it fit my existing pump station or will I need to start over so to speak. I want to avoid a loop purge if possible. Could I just cap the existing pump ports on the climatemaster and mount the new pump inline to the TT unit? Then I could just local purge.

Can I program it increase flow during stage 2 call?

Not trying to high jack this thread, but seems on topic. Thanks.

Yes, Wilo Stratus.
But we also started to design loopfields to fit a single constant speed 26-99 for anything between 2-6 tons, so we would simply get 11-12 gpm with a single pump to feed a 4T TT049.

The ultimate would be something like a small variable speed, like the groundfos magma 140, and a delta T controller.
Waterfurnace it implementing such strategy already with their variable speed 7 series.

You can do this with a 2 speed heatpump, I am not sure if it is worth the investment.
No, you cannot fit a variable speed in the B&D flowcenter. I am not familiar with the Climatemaster flowcenter.

Cost V benefit is not there for making the pump change, but the easiest way to do it if you wanna win the kwh game vs the bang for the buck game would be a non pressurized variable speed flow center. It would likely burp any air you introduced.

Yes- I just checked pricing on the Magna 140, not cheap. I guess I will stick with what I got till stuff starts to break.

Wilo is even worse (more spendy) than Magna 140, usually giving you a 10 year return on investment of you compare it to a (2 pump) 26-99 flowcenter with 2 pumps running permanently. It depends on if you view 10% ROI as good or bad......

I currently have a variable orifice flow meter connected on my rubber hose lines. I had it put on so I could easily verify the loop flows, but it looks fairly restrictive to flow. I can barely see through it anymore, so now I check my delta P to verify flows (not very often anymore).

I think if I remove the flow meter, I could likely get close to 11-12 gpm with just one 26-99 pump. Maybe I'll give that a go to shave some KwH. Maybe I'll leave the other pump in place and just swap which pump I run each season by adding a switch. I'm not sure if these pumps like to sit unused for 3-6 months?

They sit unused for 4-5 months in heating only applications every year....


I usually don't like any flex hoses, especially the rubber ones, because of flow restrictions.'