Anyone familiar with these?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GREE-Premium-Efficiency-9-000-BTU-3-4-Ton-Ductless-Duct-Free-Mini-Split-Air-Conditioner-Inverter-Heat-Remote-208-230V-GWH09MB-D3DNA3D/203536843#.Uec0IVPLDYA

-Rosalinda

So, I am looking for a small unit 3/4 to 1 ton 9,000 to 12,000 Btu, single head mini split, that will cool and heat, in the $800 to $1500 range, SEER 22 to 24, as high a COP as possible. I would prefer to install it myself and hopefully just get an HVAC guy to do a check over and charge the system, so need a system that can be sold to a DIYer.

Any suggestions?

-Rosalinda

How low can it go in terms of outdoor temperature?

There are a lot of cheap li'l Chinese & Korean mini-splits out there, but it's not dramatically more expensive to go with a 3/4 ton high efficiency Fujitsu or Mitsubishi:

http://ecomfort.com/hfi-9rlfw-wall-mounted-single-zone-heat-pump-mini-split-23-seer-9000-btu-4252.html

http://www.amazon.com/9RLS2-HALCYON-Mounted-Split-Single/dp/B008M38VNU

http://ecomfort.com/muz-ge09na-msz-ge09na-8-mr-slim-single-zone-mini-split-heat-pump-system-wall-mounted-wireless-remote-9000-btu-26877.html

http://ecomfort.com/muz-fe09na-1-msz-fe09na-8-mr-slim-single-zone-mini-split-hyper-heating-heat-pump-system-wall-mounted-wireless-remote-9000-btu-26883.html

IIRC you're in the Finger Lakes district(?), so operation below -4F is probably important to you.

The Mitsu -GE09NA craps out at a higher outdoor temp in heating mode than the -FE09NA, but both are pretty-good units.

At temps above -4F the -9RLS2 is slightly higher efficiency in heating mode than the -FE09NA, and while it's not specifically designed as a low-outdoor temp unit (there are issues with managing defrost water icing up on the bottom of the outdoor unit), it will keep on chuggin' with an unrated but real output even at -20F. I'm not sure how low the -9RLFW will go.

It's $100 over your stated price limit, but the AOU-9RLS2H is designed specifically for low outdoor temps, fully rated at -15F and will also keep running at lower temps.

http://www.younits.com/9rls2h-wall-ductless-conditioner-heat-pump-seer-9000-p-12655.html

Low temp mini-splits usually have heaters to keep the oil at the right viscosity and compressor components within mechanical tolerances at very low startup temps. Running continuously most won't have an issue runing at temps below the lowest rated output. The Mitsu -FExxNA will actively turn themselves off to self-protect once it hits about -18F or so, but will automatically restart when it warms up a degree or two above that. They have a rated output at -13F, and have no problems at all running at -15F.

Your best bets are probably going to be the -FE09NA or the -9RLS2H. I wouldn't trust a no-name pretty-good middle of the pack mini-split to not self-destruct at -10F, or even the brand-name ones with a lowest rated temp of +5F. Internet stores will sell them to you even if the local distributors won't.

Be sure to mount the outdoor unit where it won't be clobbered by eave-cornice/ice-dam falls or roof avalanches, and higher off the ground than the historically highest snowpack depth, or you'll be digging the thing up every time there's a medium sized snowstorm. Not all will auto-defrost (the Mitsubishis will though), and the closer to the ground you are the more snow it'll suck in. Wall-mounted on brackets, protected by the rake of the roof (or deep eaves) usually works. Along my daily commute I saw a few ground-mounted mini-splits being dug out after the February Nor'Easter. My buddy who took the advice and bracket mounted his 4' off the ground didn't have to star in that movie even once, despite being located in Worcester, MA, the city with the highest seasonal snowfall of ANY US city over 100K people this year. (A bit of a fluke, since Buffalo NY usually takes the kewpie doll prize on that game.) It wasn't a local record, but it was on the deep end of normal.

Mitsubishi yes / Fujitsu no

Posted By cmkavala on 18 Jul 2013 04:55 PM
Mitsubishi yes / Fujitsu no

Depends on the amount of local support & qualified installer base.  I've seen great success stories and disasters with both when the support chain was thin, and the installer/repair-tech competence low. Mitsubishi owns something like half the north American market for mini-splits, and it's largely due to their extensive distributor support & training.  But a DIY installation with final commissioning by some random HVAC person isn't necessarily going to make the Mitsubishi jump through the necessary hoops any more than it's guaranteed to drive a Fujitsu into the ground. It just depends.

IIRC failure rates and problematic installation on the thousands of units installed under the NEEA Northwest Ductless Initiative weren't particularly high for Fujitsu.  Some of the LG  were reportedly installed by less than competent techs, and have reliablity issues, but I don't have access to the hard data on any of it, just scuttlebutt.  I've yet to hear or read of Fujitsu installation or reliability issues in New England (not so for LG).  The -xxRLS2 series is pretty popular around here, just as it is in the Northwest, so I'd be surprised if they're failing in droves, or being mis-installed by idiots regularly.

Dana1, just based on my personal experience with both A lot of the mini splits are DYI freindly and come with precharged freon lines that eleminates start up by HVAC man

Thanks all for the info - as always very helpful.

Yes I am in the finger lakes of NY, so possible -10 f BUT this is not going to be my primary heat source and in truth I could just not use it if the temps go critically low - which happens a handful of days per year in winter. I only want some extra heat during those very cold cloudy winter days, not at night.

The outside unit will probably go under the 10 ft deep deck, on the ground floor, on the east side of the house. I should be able to mount it on brackets under the deck to keep it off the ground and protected from wet. Prevailing weather from the west, though not impossible to get a snow storm from the east. We rarely get feet of snow, usually more inches - though now that I have said that we will probably get buried next winter.

-Rosalinda

Under the deck works, as long as it's well vented, not an enclosed skirted deck space. (Air source heat pumps require access to their source.)

The pre-charge of linesets isn't always as advertised, and the charge/performance still needs to be verified. But sure, using the pre-charged linesets make DIY installation pretty simple, bearing in mind that the more idiot-proof you make the system, the more creative the idiots become, and the odds of being optimally charged isn't 100%, even when working-mostly. Using the fixed length pre-charged linesets can sometimes complicate the installation too- depends on the number of bends and how far you need to run them, etc.

The global warming potential of a leaked/leaking R410A charge is pretty gia-normous even if replacing the charge isn't a huge expense. Using a trained & certified pro to inspect, charge & test the system isn't usually going to be a huge cost (and would be required in CA, not sure about NY), and may be necessary to be covered by warranty.

Thanks Dana, The deck is a second story one, so the unit will have full access to air, just be somewhat sheltered from weather and temp extremes.

I will keep in mind the points about finding a qualified HVAC person with experience with mini splits - and hopefully with the brand I chose.

Appreciate everyone's help - thank you. It really does help to get the opinions of folks with experience.

-Rosalinda

I'm in the midst of a bad experience with Mitsubishi. We installed two on a rental last year and a "board went out" per Mitsu tech support. Trouble is, we ordered the board on 16 July and it still isn't here. Given weather here in Florida, homes are pretty much unable to be occupied w/o AC. Latest theory is that it'll show up on 30 July.

Fortunately the client doesn't have anyone in the dwelling, but it is unrentable until fixed. Two days is about as long as I think one should have to wait for non-stocked parts. Meanwhile I'm getting a lot of yadda-yadda from distributor about a slow boat from China.

If true, Mitsubishi is not ready for prime time here in the humid south...Florida rooms maybe, main homes not so much!

I made supplier sufficiently aware of my ire in this and they've offered to cannibalize the bum board from a new stock unit - nice of them but one heckuva way to run a railroad, IMO.

That's a truly unacceptable state of affairs, and a really sorry response for a distributor to be making! I'm curious just how big the support network is in FL compared to MA or WA (where I'm a bit more familiar with the distribution chain.)

I have heard 3-hand reports about Mitsubishi control boards being damaged by lightning strikes (from a less than credible installer trying to sell powerline conditioning equipment as lightning protection- which would deliver a dubious level of lightning protection at best) , but when lighting hits all sorts of stuff blows- even old-school relays & transformers. Given the quality of power in many Asian countries where this stuff is ubiquitous, I'd expect most mini-splits to be relatively tolerant of the range of US power grid quality issues.

Welcome to the HVAC business Curt. As it turns out everyone tends to heat or cool at the same time meaning there is an ebb and flow of part availability. Further strikes or natural disasters can foul the food chain.
It is customary for a supply house that values your business to take a part off a new unit to help you out. It is also customary for those of us in the business to sometimes buy extra equipment and cannibalize it ourselves or stock parts that we know have hic-cups in availability. We also tend to keep a store of electric space heaters and portable airconditioners.
I do not say this with a mean spirit, no more of a kindred spirit as I remember being appalled when a supply house told me a heat exchanger was backordered in February and my customer had to wait a week. You do what you can do for folks which in this case meant I loaned them heaters.

We installed two on a rental last year

Maybe two independent units oversized enough to handle most (not all) of the typical (not design day) load alone is worth it even if it's not otherwise the most cost effective choice. Or a cheap inefficient window unit for temporary use.

I don't have Joe's time in this biz but am somewhat accustomed to flexible response to problems. I have several portable AC units and a half dozen electric heaters and often loan them out to bridge gaps in part or staff availability.

I have become accustomed to part delays of just 1-3 days, not WEEKS. As of now we still don't have the Mitsu board, and it hasn't even shipped. Another thing that irks me is the serial "it will be in on 'x' day" promises I've been given. If the thing is way backordered or Mr Mitsubishi is having his appendix out in Yokohama, just tell me so I can adjust customer expectations once and for all.

The local distributor has excellent staff and gets 90+ % of my "commodity" part and supply business, and that hasn't changed. I suspect they are as much victims in this as I am.

Fortunately this situation involves a "B-List" client whose investment property is not now occupied, so this is more of an inconvenience than a crisis. If this situation involved a conventional split system in one of my deep retrofit or new construction clients in a $500k - $2 Million home I'd be in deep trouble.

The takeaway for me is that Mitsu is simply not ready for prime time...I don't yet dare specify an innovative minisplit solution for one of my high end customers no matter how much I like the technology.

Amongst the other thing you may end up with is a company feeder fish Curt- that's the appliance you have just for spare parts. Unfortunately Mitsu is one of the oldest players in this game and dealers could share lot's of Daiken or other stories with you.

I don't think I agree with the 2 oversized units plan Jon, certainly a homeowner could do so, but the contractor who bid that way would be kicked to the curb for high price.

Since when did we become a land of wimps that can't go a little cold or warm for a week?

Posted By joe.ami on 01 Aug 2013 09:29 AM
Amongst the other thing you may end up with is a company feeder fish Curt- that's the appliance you have just for spare parts. Unfortunately Mitsu is one of the oldest players in this game and dealers could share lot's of Daiken or other stories with you.

I don't think I agree with the 2 oversized units plan Jon, certainly a homeowner could do so, but the contractor who bid that way would be kicked to the curb for high price.

Since when did we become a land of wimps that can't go a little cold or warm for a week?

Not one of, but rather THE oldest player in the game!  Mitsubishi invented the mini-split system back in 1954, but they weren't widely exported until ~1968.  They haven't been a common solution in the US (outside of Hawaii anyway) until the last 15 years or so.

Mitsubishi probably has the largest support network of any of the mini-split manufacturers in N. America too...

People in million dollar homes usually feel like they've paid for the right to be wimps when it comes to creature comfort, even for a few hours.  The rest of us can usually tolerate the discomfort for awhile, but we're a sharing country, and the sharing with the HVAC contractors who sold us the goods will intensify as the week grows long.  We're too used to instant gratification on most goods & services the size of a board-swap in a mini-split, not-so-used to waiting for the caravan to clear customs at the top of the pass in Kazakhstan on it's way down the Silk Road.  But having to wait for parts (for anything) is business as usual in most of the world.

I brought up the wimps thing in reference to heating redundancy. In geo we are asked about emergency heat with some frequency, yet nobody ever asks about it when they buy a furnace.
Jon had suggested 2 units to do the work of one and I suppose one could offer that in the multi-million dollar homes, but you would be suprised how many of those shop for lowest bidder on heating too.

A sample data point: two Gree 1 tons ($1200x2) vs a similar Fujitsu 1.5 ton at $1800. Plus additional install costs for the Grees. The Fujitsu is the better brand name, but you have fewer running hours on the two units, quicker cool down, better air distribution and pretty good redundancy when one fails. Or get the Fujitsu and buy a $600 2 ton window unit if it fails and can't be repaired immediately.

With dewpoints in the upper 70s 24/7 here, a week without AC is a lot to ask.