He doesn't know how to do one, does he? I'm sure whatever you do will meet code for wind, but it's really easy to do the concrete over basement and that would give you radiant up there, too.

Can you send me links?
MK

If I was doing it again, I think I'd try the LiteDeck.

http://www.litedeck.com/

Here are some articles from some time back which describe construction using Insuldeck and some other methods of concrete forming. The cost numbers will be somewhat out of date. Don't let all the steel supports frighten you or your contractor. We used long parallel studwalls of 2X6 and then reused the lumber afterwards for the rest of the construction.

http://www.insul-deck.org/assets/PDF/ConcreteConstructionFloorsArticle.pdf

http://www.insul-deck.org/assets/PDF/labarge_slab_article.pdf

Mak,

Here's another link to add to your confusion:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/community/forum/mechanicals/21506/mitsubishi-rep-says-minisplit-wont-work-back-geo

I thought it might interest you because there are at least one or two posts in the comments of people using air source units successfully on homes about your size (not because of the title).

If you do go the geo route, I can tell you there is a small installer near you (south of Rochester) who I would personally recommend highly. Don't want to step over any advertising line here and put the name in, but pm me and I can give you the info. I'm not related to the company in any way, just a happy residential customer.

We had our 3 ton system put in last year and are very happy with it. I'm mainly posting this because (especially if you spend any time on Green Building Advisor) you will read that geo systems are overly expensive to put in, and their COP performance is low (ie, 2.5-3.0 at best). My experience has been different. Our ground loop system was nowhere as expensive as the 30-40k you read about. Average COP was estimated by the installer to be 3.9 and I have measured the system myself recently and it came in over 4.3 in 1st stage operation (including pumping,etc), so the 3.9 average is believable (and my last years worth of electric bills are in line with that).

In my case, we were retrofitting a heating system in a 170 year old house that is insulated about as well as I can without going to extremes. In your case, you control everything and should be able to get the heat load way down, making air source a real possibility with the right design.

So whether you go with air source or ground source, I'm convinced that there is no other way to heat that uses as little energy. Also, keep in mind you can choose to buy your electricity as wind power so most of the point of use savings are real

Thanks for the input. Will send you a pm. MK[

he quotes the hyper heat units at 8k each. I have quote for (3) 12,000 btu MHyperHeat units installed for 8k total. So better shop around!

If you would like radiant on the main floor you could look into warmboard's system which uses a 1-1/8" subfloor with grooving for the tubing. That is what i am wanting to use on my icf home on the main level.

Posted By MAK2013 on 15 Dec 2012 09:03 AM
Been reading much more on air-source heat pumps.
Why are air-source heat pumps so uncommon in our area. There seems to be many more geothermal instals.
Do you think it has to do with venders, government programs, or some other reason?
If I want to go see a geothermal set up it is easy. Can't seem to even find anyone around here with air source.
But I have only been looking since "Dana1's" post.

Mini-splits are blooming in central MA like mushrooms after a rain now that the sustained price floor for heating oil is now north of $3/gallon.  Even as a partial solution to heating with propane or heating oil it pays for itself in short years in offset fuel use.  At ~15cents/kwh the approximate heating costs are similar to natural gas in a central MA climate (which isn't much warmer than Rochester, if it's warmer at all.) But at conventional code min (even post 1980 code-min) R-values/U-factors most houses in the norhteast have heat loads at the high end of ductless output, and would need multiple heads/cassettes to keep the room to room temperature differences well bounded.

Ductless air-source is point-source heating, and when overall peak loads are north of 35,000 BTU/hr and with houses that really need 4+ heads to stay comfortable it's not necessarily more cost effective than other solutions.  But in new construction you get to define the heat loads in each room, and the uptick in window & insulation cost necessary for a doored-off bedroom to not need it's own ductless cassette will often be less than the cost of the cassette.  The cost of getting the whole-house load down to the range of a 1-2 head ductless is usually less than the cost difference between a 2-ton ductless and the 3-4 ton geo that it displaces. 

Most existing houses (even new ones) in your area have a whole-wall R  in the R13-R15 range, (eg, 2x6 construction with R20 batts or cellulose) with windows in the U0.28-0.32 range, and whole-house heat loads tend to run around 40,000 BTU/hr for a 2700' house.  But a "pretty good house" with R35 whole-walls will have less than half the heat load of typical NY construction, which makes ductless air source a more attractive (and at least plausible) solution.  If you're heating with a condensing natural gas furnaces the economics of going to the more thermally efficient house package may not have an instant rationale.  It's an easier financial argument to make if you're looking at high-priced operating costs of propane or oil, or looking at the substantial upfront cost of geo.  From a comfort point of view highest-efficiency buildings usually beat highest-efficiency mechanical systems.

In MA there is a modest amount of subsidy for ductless heat pumps (~$500 as a rebate, IIRC), and no federal subsidy that I'm aware of, compared to fairly hefty federal tax credits for geo, which tends to distort the market. (That $30K geo system might run only $21K after subsidy). I didn't find any hint of a NY subsidy for ductless on the NYSERDA site either. In WA there are $1000 rebate type subsidies available from some of the electrical utilities, which ends up being a reasonable chunk of the installed cost (about 25% of the installed cost of a typical 1-1.5 ton high efficiency name-brand mini-split.)

Ductless air source heat pump technology isn't particularly new, but it's been much-improved since the it's early days in the 1960s, and even the past 5-7 years has seen big improvements in both efficiency and lower-temperature operation limitations.   With the introduction of "inverter drive" fully variable-speed scroll compressors, variable volume refrigerant valving and modulating feedback controls the efficiency has been soaring, to where the seasonal averages are beginning to challenge the efficiency of geo in more temperate climates.  In upstate NY you can figure on hitting annual heating coefficient of performances (COP) averaging from 2.5-3.5, whereas with geo you might hit 3.0-4.0, maybe a bit better in a best-case best design scenario.  World wide ductless systems are one of THE most common methods of heating homes wherever reasonably reliable electric power is available (even in 3rd world places, if the homeowner can afford it.)

But even if a ductless heat pump runs a somewhat lower efficiency than geo, spending the difference in system cost on upgrading the thermal performance of the house results in lower net power use &  higher comfort compared to a code-min house with high performance geo supporting a higher heating load.  In retrofitting already built & occupied homes the economics will often tip toward putting the money into geo than into upgrading the building, but on new construction (and full-gut rehabs) the numbers will tip the other way, especially when your 99% outside design temps aren't much below 0F.  Even at -4F (-20C) there are many ductless solutions that will work without needing resistance-heating as backup.

Again thanks for all the input, and taking the time to get that information out there. Really appreciate it.
I'm going to look at all three geo options closed loops, Dx, and open loops. Have very real concerns about DX, but will factor that all in.
In addition going to take a good hard look at mini-splits and get some quotes on those as well.
Going start a second thread with questions about the pumps for geothermal.
Thanks again MK

Posted By Bob I on 16 Dec 2012 01:23 PM
he quotes the hyper heat units at 8k each. I have quote for (3) 12,000 btu MHyperHeat units installed for 8k total. So better shop around!

That's a price point I've not yet seen on the Mitsubishi H2i series! 

A 3-fer quote for 1.5 ton hyper-heats on a deep energy retrofit I was involved was a bit north of $12K, which is about the same on a per-ton basis.  But the installation labor is pretty much the same whether it's a 3/4 ton or a 2-ton unit, so the per-ton cost tends to run higher for smaller units.  But if you're paying more than $3500/ton (any size) you're probably paying too much, unless there are unusual circumstances that make the installation much more difficult. 

I've seen (and passed up) a quote for a one-off installation on Fujistu 1-ton that was north of $4500, but that's the high end on any mini-split quote I've encountered.  Some of the Daikin Quaternity series might be north of that, but you'd paying extra for the for the unique dehumidify-in-heating-mode and ability to dehumify to a relative humidity setpoint independent of the heating/cooling setpoint,  etc.

MK send me a PM I work in the Rochester area and can give you some ideas

MK send me a PM I work in the Rochester area and can give you some ideas

Are they secrets?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 16 Dec 2012 11:13 AM
If I was doing it again, I think I'd try the LiteDeck.

http://www.litedeck.com/

Here are some articles from some time back which describe construction using Insuldeck and some other methods of concrete forming. The cost numbers will be somewhat out of date. Don't let all the steel supports frighten you or your contractor. We used long parallel studwalls of 2X6 and then reused the lumber afterwards for the rest of the construction.

http://www.insul-deck.org/assets/PDF/ConcreteConstructionFloorsArticle.pdf

http://www.insul-deck.org/assets/PDF/labarge_slab_article.pdf

Why would you switch from the InsulDeck to the LiteDeck?

I thought LiteDeck uses a lower density EPS.

In my area (southeast), Lite-Deck usually cost less than Insul-Deck.

Posted By Alton on 19 Dec 2012 07:41 PM
In my area (southeast), Lite-Deck usually cost less than Insul-Deck.

The LiteDeck does not have the hollowed out tubes/channels to run utilities. Did that pose any problems?

I can't imagine how the density of the EPS could affect any job. It certainly wouldn't have had an effect on mine.

The primary reason would be the support provided by the company. The Insuldeck folks were not supportive or forthcoming in terms of me as the end user. If you are a contractor and making a buy decision, that might be different.