Thermal mass -- A very, very bad thing?
Last Post 22 Dec 2018 12:22 AM by sailawayrb. 48 Replies.
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sailawayrbUser is Offline
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25 Jun 2018 03:15 PM
PC drywall has been talked about for at least ten years. US National Gypsum makes it and it was being tested in CA. I suspect it has some issues that need to get sorted out before and if it will ever become mainstream. We discussed it on the Build it Solar forum several years ago:

Build it Solar Phase Change Drywall Discussion


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25 Jun 2018 04:40 PM
sailawayrb,
I wish that were true, but it seems that US National Gypsum dropped all work years ago, all the web info is on dead links, and their web site has no mention of PCM in any form. Meanwhile, European suppliers have many PCM products on the shelf.


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25 Jun 2018 08:56 PM
Well, I got to see some first-hand installed in a home in CA not too many years ago. It is true that Europe tends to field better stuff long before the US does. I think they had PEX tube about 50 years before we did. The same is true with the better HR system components. I am not sure why that is.


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12 Dec 2018 07:04 PM
Posted By sailawayrb on 25 Jun 2018 08:56 PM
Well, I got to see some first-hand installed in a home in CA not too many years ago. It is true that Europe tends to field better stuff long before the US does. I think they had PEX tube about 50 years before we did. The same is true with the better HR system components. I am not sure why that is.

It comes down to who controls the $$$. Here in the USA, the timber industry is king in residential. In addition, 95% of all residential GC's only know how to work with wood frame. Once you get into masonry/concrete/steel, then your best bet is to find a commercial GC but most commercial GCs will not touch a residential project unless it's a 5,000sqft+ mega mansion.


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13 Dec 2018 06:48 AM
Posted By sailawayrb on 25 Jun 2018 08:56 PM
Well, I got to see some first-hand installed in a home in CA not too many years ago. It is true that Europe tends to field better stuff long before the US does. I think they had PEX tube about 50 years before we did. The same is true with the better HR system components. I am not sure why that is.

Sheer size and inertia...


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13 Dec 2018 06:42 PM
I think the biggest factor in the slow pace of building science and advanced technology is twofold: Poor valuing of low energy usage by the general buying public (and extensive political thought control about green efforts overall), and ignorance of the technology by that public. Until the market values what can be done, it won't be done. I am building a 3600 ft off grid house with all the doo-dads - PCM, PV and Lion battery power, passive solar, and a full airtight high R envelope. I am buying my PCM this week, there are two vendors who will work with you, and it goes under the sheetrock in the living spaces. I'd be glad to post a little about the project and suppliers if you folks are interested.


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21 Dec 2018 05:34 PM
I am very interested. Please post some photos when you have a chance. And I agree with your perspective too.


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rvalueUser is Offline
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21 Dec 2018 09:58 PM
Though this has taken an interesting turn, I'm getting back to the original arguments/questions.
I speak from experience, having been building passive solar ICF homes for 15 years in CZ 5 and 6, and living in one for five years.
Certainly, thermal mass is excellent when the diurnal temps go above and below setpoint. We see this for about 4-6 weeks every spring and fall. During this time, most homes are running their heat and night. Our homes do not. That is 2-3 months/year LESS that a well designed home does not require space conditioning. Thermal mass is a key part of this.

In normal climates, where mean daily temperature is not 72 degrees thermal mass would only increase costs. For example, if mean temperature range is 55 degrees, then the only thing the thermal mass did is require your heating system to heat up a huge useless mass And, if the next day it is hot, you now have to spend money on your air conditioning to cool down that thermal mass you just heated up. What a waste of energy!


This is not the case. Thermal mass maintains heat. Think of it this way: you only heat it once for the lifetime of your home, not daily. Perhaps I am missing something, but it seems the argument assumes that one would heat the mass to a point that is above your cooling setpoint. In reality, you heat it to 70 degrees. If the next day happens to be 80, that mass will absorb most of the heat, and PREVENT you from turning on AC. If it stays 80 for days on end, we are still not going to cool the mass to a point below what we heated it to. We only cool to 75 degrees. This means that seasonally, the mass temp only changes 5 degrees up in the late spring, and 5 degrees down in the late fall. never are we cooling a mass we heated, or heating a mass we cooled. Rather, we gain from the mass absorbing/releasing the 5 degrees of stored energy.

Any home, any design, any technology can be used incorrectly, designed improperly, or installed poorly. We don't judge the worth of a system by a badly executed example. We judge it by a well done example. I can barely hit a baseball holding a bat properly; but I am guaranteed to be frustrated if I hold it backward!
The radiant heat situation you described MIGHT happen in a poorly executed home; but this is not at all the case for a well done home. Even at a zero degree design condition, our floors are only a few degrees above setpoint. This just what is required to keep up with the heat loss through the walls, fenestrations, and ceiling. If the sun were to come out and reverse the heat flow through the windows, the walls and ceiling will still be losing heat. The floor would turn off, but it was only 73 degrees at the most. At zero degrees outside, the sun isn't providing more heat than the home is losing (again assuming a well executed home). But let's assume for the sake of your argument that it provides 100% of the heat load of the home at zero degrees. At this point NONE of the 3 degree difference between setpoint and slab temp is needed. Worse case-the home overheats by the 3 degrees of the slab temp. Big deal. The first couple hours the sun stops hitting the windows (around 4:00 here) the home will use up that excess heat, and the floor will kick on again.
So at worst, we were a few degrees warmer than we wanted, but we gained a half day or more of the heat not running!

I think if you lived in such a home for a little bit, your concerns would quickly dispel.


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Jake Vierzen
R-Value Homes
Grand Rapids, MI
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sailawayrbUser is Offline
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22 Dec 2018 12:22 AM
Yes, that is our experience as well...the concrete HR floor temp in our ICF passive solar home peaks about 2-3 degrees above the indoor set point temp and the home only gets actively heated about 10 hours a day. Since the floor never gets much higher than the desired indoor temp, there is only 2-3 degrees of indoor temp overshoot on the full sun days even with the HR system pump not operating. With the HR system pump operating and moving the passive solar heat from the warmer floor areas to the cooler areas, there is zero overshoot. But as you indicated, you do have to properly accomplish an integrated passive solar and HVAC design for the climate and latitude where the building is located.


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