Thanks kb, yep that would be me. I think that you would enjoy this link, it has some great information to consider. http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/homes/passive-solar-home-1980s "IMHO 50+% of the internet complaints are likely due to user/installer issues rather than manufacturing problems" - I agree. Install can make an average window seem pretty good and it can make a really good window seem pretty bad. Cardinal is the 800lb gorilla of the residential market. I have read that as much as 70% of residential coatings come from Cardinal (I have no idea how to verify it though). They advertise 400,000,000 IGU's under warranty. So there really is no way to discuss residential windows without Cardinal showing up somewhere in the conversation. You are correct about the 178/179/180 progression, so it's not a stretch to think the same of 270 and 272 the same way. And I have no idea why this post ended up as a single paragraph......sorry about that

Lee and Oberon, your insite is invaluable. I appreciate the information and links. Oberon, your link reminds me a lot of Alex Wade designs, in particular my all-time favorite, the Perlberg house (which can be found in Google Earth)

If you want to overcome the single paragraph problem here just type .<./.br. ./.> but without any of the periods

The point about west facing glass was slammed home for me about 5 years ago when I visited a friend of the family. They had a beautiful house that appeared to be a passive solar design. I asked how he liked it and he said it was awful the place boiled every evening it was sunny and the AC couldn’t keep up . I was surprised because it looked like it had properly designed overhangs. I saw the place a few weeks later on a sunny day and realized it was a great passive design- turned 90° so the glass all faced west( because that was where the view was).

Use high solar gain windows to the South- ideally oriented true solar south, with a properly designed overhang as a great place to start. On the East and west- use low Solar gain windows- unless you can use deciduous trees to shade low angle sun in the summer- and be able to use the solar gain in the winter.

I used Kohltech vinyl windows on my own house. On the south side I used Solar Glas which is high solar gain low E double pane with krypton fill for the other 3 sides I used Energlass + Low solar gain Triple pane Krypton Filled windows. All are triple seal casements. Window are OK quality- not great- but acceptable. I had 6 window quotes ranging from 5,400, and 6,100 for generic code minimum to around 8100 for Kohltech, 9,000 for Pella and 2 Canadian fiberglass windows that were 13,200, and 14,600$ Circa 2008 so not current price points. Their glass options have changed a bit since I bought them.
Had cost been no consideration I would have chosen fiberglass windows .
I had a hard time finding an American manufacturer with lots of window options.
Hard choices- good Luck
Eric

Forget Ostaco, I went to their factory after making an appointment. No one to talk to except the secretary, she showed me three windows and a door in their "showroom" lost my business right there!!! I ended up with Strassburger windows and doors, couldn't be happier. If you would like to see the prices I paid for the windows I could send you the quote. They are all triple glazed, only cost $1800 more than double glazed.

Posted By Stuie on 27 Feb 2014 10:18 PM
Forget Ostaco, I went to their factory after making an appointment. No one to talk to except the secretary, she showed me three windows and a door in their "showroom" lost my business right there!!! I ended up with Strassburger windows and doors, couldn't be happier. If you would like to see the prices I paid for the windows I could send you the quote. They are all triple glazed, only cost $1800 more than double glazed.

Thanks Stuie, I added Strassburger to my list strictly because of your posts elsewhere on GBT. You didn't even mention the name but it was in the pictures you posted. They have a Michigan dealer as well, where Otasco has no USA presence whatsoever. They both use Cardinal glass, which is a plus for me.

Eric I appreciate your data points and info, it is all relevant.

Posted By kb on 19 Feb 2014 04:31 PM
Thanks Guys,
Yes my Prime Directive is U-Value, and price. Of course everything else can also be significant if it is too far from my goal data. My only problem with Intus is the screens seem to be an afterthought so LBear, yes fixed is the way to go there. I almost ruled Marvin out as the AI is a bit up there compared to say Okna but their price point seems good. Zola is high quality but appears to be also high priced, so I dropped them earlier. Some of my other Euros may fall off the list once I find price points for them. Canada is pretty close to Michigan so shipping should not be outrageous, Canadian windows have a good chance. I recently added Strassburger, (Canada) as they have a Michigan presence as well as good numbers. (Thanks GBT user Stuie!) I will probably try to visit the Sunrise factory as they are pretty near me. My only problem with them is that they only offer sliding patio doors. I can get swinging doors elsewhere I suppose. Their website only shows double pane Doors at U = .29, but perhaps they can make a triple. If anyone has some recs on particular glass packages I am all ears.

The only other main constraint is the ability to install “Inbetweenie”. That means I don’t really need the nailing flange as it only leads to a larger hole in the wall to accommodate it. The Euro data and thermal imaging pictures I have seen seem to show the optimal place for windows is the middle. With thick SIP/ICF walls that leaves about 3-4” on each side. It is estimated 10% greater efficiency over “Innie” or “Outie”(most typical).

I know that price is a major consideration, but you can get better screens.  You can't see it clearly in my pictures, but my window manufacturer built a separate enclosure to hide the retractable screen that is made with the same material as the exterior of my window.  The window jamb is bigger in places where there is a screen.  On my big window, I was a little surprised how they were built, but it is too late now.  i was hoping that the entire jamb would be the same size, but where the window is fixed, it has a thinner jamb.  It made it a little harder to install, and it has a non uniform look from the outside, but I think it wouldn't be noticed by most people.

When the stucco is done, I can get a better picture.  Right now, there is still the protective tape on them, and miraculously, it is actually raining in the bay area, and it will supposedly for the next week, so the pictures are sort of dark.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxnbjfsn3zqezvn/8snOSTsczw

Posted By ba_icf on 28 Feb 2014 04:01 PM

Posted By kb on 19 Feb 2014 04:31 PM
Thanks Guys,
Yes my Prime Directive is U-Value, and price. Of course everything else can also be significant if it is too far from my goal data. My only problem with Intus is the screens seem to be an afterthought so LBear, yes fixed is the way to go there. I almost ruled Marvin out as the AI is a bit up there compared to say Okna but their price point seems good. Zola is high quality but appears to be also high priced, so I dropped them earlier. Some of my other Euros may fall off the list once I find price points for them. Canada is pretty close to Michigan so shipping should not be outrageous, Canadian windows have a good chance. I recently added Strassburger, (Canada) as they have a Michigan presence as well as good numbers. (Thanks GBT user Stuie!) I will probably try to visit the Sunrise factory as they are pretty near me. My only problem with them is that they only offer sliding patio doors. I can get swinging doors elsewhere I suppose. Their website only shows double pane Doors at U = .29, but perhaps they can make a triple. If anyone has some recs on particular glass packages I am all ears.

The only other main constraint is the ability to install “Inbetweenie”. That means I don’t really need the nailing flange as it only leads to a larger hole in the wall to accommodate it. The Euro data and thermal imaging pictures I have seen seem to show the optimal place for windows is the middle. With thick SIP/ICF walls that leaves about 3-4” on each side. It is estimated 10% greater efficiency over “Innie” or “Outie”(most typical).

I know that price is a major consideration, but you can get better screens.  You can't see it clearly in my pictures, but my window manufacturer built a separate enclosure to hide the retractable screen that is made with the same material as the exterior of my window.  The window jamb is bigger in places where there is a screen.  On my big window, I was a little surprised how they were built, but it is too late now.  i was hoping that the entire jamb would be the same size, but where the window is fixed, it has a thinner jamb.  It made it a little harder to install, and it has a non uniform look from the outside, but I think it wouldn't be noticed by most people.

When the stucco is done, I can get a better picture.  Right now, there is still the protective tape on them, and miraculously, it is actually raining in the bay area, and it will supposedly for the next week, so the pictures are sort of dark.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxnbjfsn3zqezvn/8snOSTsczw

Wow, that's quite a collection of build photos and vids ba_icf. I like the idea of retractable screens. They are out of the way for the winter and can be put to use when needed. Makes sense. Italian windows? In my current house the screens stay up all year as there is no good place to store them.

yes, they are italian windows

Posted By kb on 01 Mar 2014 06:45 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 28 Feb 2014 04:01 PM

Posted By kb on 19 Feb 2014 04:31 PM
Thanks Guys,
Yes my Prime Directive is U-Value, and price. Of course everything else can also be significant if it is too far from my goal data. My only problem with Intus is the screens seem to be an afterthought so LBear, yes fixed is the way to go there. I almost ruled Marvin out as the AI is a bit up there compared to say Okna but their price point seems good. Zola is high quality but appears to be also high priced, so I dropped them earlier. Some of my other Euros may fall off the list once I find price points for them. Canada is pretty close to Michigan so shipping should not be outrageous, Canadian windows have a good chance. I recently added Strassburger, (Canada) as they have a Michigan presence as well as good numbers. (Thanks GBT user Stuie!) I will probably try to visit the Sunrise factory as they are pretty near me. My only problem with them is that they only offer sliding patio doors. I can get swinging doors elsewhere I suppose. Their website only shows double pane Doors at U = .29, but perhaps they can make a triple. If anyone has some recs on particular glass packages I am all ears.

The only other main constraint is the ability to install “Inbetweenie”. That means I don’t really need the nailing flange as it only leads to a larger hole in the wall to accommodate it. The Euro data and thermal imaging pictures I have seen seem to show the optimal place for windows is the middle. With thick SIP/ICF walls that leaves about 3-4” on each side. It is estimated 10% greater efficiency over “Innie” or “Outie”(most typical).

I know that price is a major consideration, but you can get better screens.  You can't see it clearly in my pictures, but my window manufacturer built a separate enclosure to hide the retractable screen that is made with the same material as the exterior of my window.  The window jamb is bigger in places where there is a screen.  On my big window, I was a little surprised how they were built, but it is too late now.  i was hoping that the entire jamb would be the same size, but where the window is fixed, it has a thinner jamb.  It made it a little harder to install, and it has a non uniform look from the outside, but I think it wouldn't be noticed by most people.

When the stucco is done, I can get a better picture.  Right now, there is still the protective tape on them, and miraculously, it is actually raining in the bay area, and it will supposedly for the next week, so the pictures are sort of dark.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxnbjfsn3zqezvn/8snOSTsczw

Wow, that's quite a collection of build photos and vids ba_icf. I like the idea of retractable screens. They are out of the way for the winter and can be put to use when needed. Makes sense. Italian windows? In my current house the screens stay up all year as there is no good place to store them.

thanks.  i don't feel that i take enough photos.  i have been negligent recently.  now, i have to answer questions and make decisions, and then i forget to take some pictures.  even installing the windows and doors was time consuming.  they are a little different than what is normally installed, so the first guy quoted me an obscene amount to install the windows.  in the end, i used my own GC to install the windows.  they are learning as they go, but they just re-do it if it isn't correct.  one big issue is the front door.  it has almost no clearance from the threshold to the bottom of the door.  it is designed to be installed on top of the finished floor.  however, no one installs entry doors at the very end, so now we have to come up with a way that will look good and the door can still open.

Kb,
I'm very interested in your results. It sounds like we are looking for the same things I'd suggest adding Mercer to your short list just because they have decent NFRC data ( they use 1 3/8" IGUs). I had tentatively selected Inline as they had good data and were the lowest cost of the fiberglass frame suppliers but I didn't even consider the PVC products, I probably should.

Another question for you is why not consider low e 180 on surfaces 2 and 5 without the i89? ? Without the i89 SHG will be higher (.56 vs .5) and u will be very slightly higher as well.

Posted By Liebler on 09 Mar 2014 10:07 PM
Kb,
I'm very interested in your results. It sounds like we are looking for the same things I'd suggest adding Mercer to your short list just because they have decent NFRC data ( they use 1 3/8" IGUs). I had tentatively selected Inline as they had good data and were the lowest cost of the fiberglass frame suppliers but I didn't even consider the PVC products, I probably should.

Another question for you is why not consider low e 180 on surfaces 2 and 5 without the i89? ? Without the i89 SHG will be higher (.56 vs .5) and u will be very slightly higher as well.

My current status:

I haven't ruled out the Euro windows completely as I know they are very good, High marks go to Optiwin, Zola, and Intus, but I just can't see paying for a shipping container to get windows I can't even see before I buy. On top of that the waiting time is in months. In addition, their U-values are not rated NFRC so comparison is difficult.

I feel sorry for the salesmen at the "big box" stores I tried to shop at. They don't even know anything about any of the data I am interested in. One guy thought Krypton was a type of glass. (rolleyes). Another salesman said "most people just look at the windows and decide". He had been selling windows for 6 years and didn't know that Pella uses Cardinal glass. The salesmen have been schooled in all the hype and lingo but can't really answer any of the questions I have.

I was impressed at a "home show" in Grand Rapids, MI by the knowledge that the Marvin people had. Marvin Integrity prices aren't all that high and the quality is top notch. They also told me if I order it takes about 10 days for delivery. The only low marks for them is their best U-val listed in the NFRC database is .20 for the triple pane, and they don't yet have a triple slider door. I am still sorting the "real data" out though. Some manufacturers more or less tilt the data with things like "fixed double hung" or combined KR/AR gas to get good values.

As for i89, the way I read the info is that it lowers the U-val by ~.03, and will reflect the heat back into the room, yes the VT and SHGC suffer a little but it is all about U-val for me. Everyone wants to sell the 366 glass options which are fine for an AC environment but it also cuts the VT a lot.

I'm looking for:
LoĒ-180 (#2) / LoĒ-180 (#4) / i89 (#6)
or
LoĒ²-272 (#2) / LoĒ-180 (#4) / i89 (#6)

Preferably wider IGU, Argon, and 4mm glass, but the numbers will tell the full story.
I will look into Mercer. Lansing home show is this coming weekend.

That is the main problem with any of the American-based big-brand window companies. The reps are mostly clueless when it comes to getting detailed energy numbers from them and they will refer you to the "engineer" or have you look up the numbers yourself.

Here in America the same problem arises with new homes. The sales reps and home builders will tell you how great the cabinets are and how great the granite counter tops are but they have no clue what insulation value you have in the walls or ceiling. If they say anything, they will say it's "up to code" and leave it at that.

Looking at PVC triple glazed casements. From the NFRC data, the winner is Sunrise with u=.15,shgc=.38,vt=48 for the loe180,loe180,i89. Sunrise clearly beats Mercer and Ostaco with Ostago's values u-.17 and SHGC=.36 for the same glass. I believe this is due to the greater percentage of glass area that the Sunrise window offers ( thinner frame) combined with their use of polyurethane foam in the frame. Interestingly the Sunrise window with a clear interior (no i89) is the same u and better SHGC than the Ostaco with the i89. In all cases the i89 REDUCES the condensation resistance. Speaking of condensation resistance the Mercer units are far better, I wonder if they are using a different spacer. A drawback to the Sunrise design is that it only uses a single seal while the others feature triple seals. I suppose that a single seal is fine if it always works but a bit of dirt is more likely to cause leakage. I've heard that adding the i89 results in a substantial cost addition, it may not be worth it.

We have been contemplating a new build, thus looking at windows. I just received a package estimate from Menards. I had them give me a price on their fiberglass Crestline Acclaim casement triple pane window. The estimate figures out to be $51 per square foot of glass. It seems to be a pretty good value. The performance values look to be ok; U=.20, SHGC=.18 and VT=.37. No information on infiltration rates. The way it appears to me the Acclaim window is manufactured by WeatherShield in Medford, WI. Does anyone have an informed opinion on that particular window?

Posted By Liebler on 10 Mar 2014 09:19 PM
Looking at PVC triple glazed casements. From the NFRC data, the winner is Sunrise with u=.15,shgc=.38,vt=48 for the loe180,loe180,i89. Sunrise clearly beats Mercer and Ostaco with Ostago's values u-.17 and SHGC=.36 for the same glass. I believe this is due to the greater percentage of glass area that the Sunrise window offers ( thinner frame) combined with their use of polyurethane foam in the frame. Interestingly the Sunrise window with a clear interior (no i89) is the same u and better SHGC than the Ostaco with the i89. In all cases the i89 REDUCES the condensation resistance. Speaking of condensation resistance the Mercer units are far better, I wonder if they are using a different spacer. A drawback to the Sunrise design is that it only uses a single seal while the others feature triple seals. I suppose that a single seal is fine if it always works but a bit of dirt is more likely to cause leakage. I've heard that adding the i89 results in a substantial cost addition, it may not be worth it.

Great info there Liebler. I hadn't heard the i89 was so costly. I haven't added Mercer to my short list as they just don't have enough info in the NFRC database to know what exactly I am comparing. In addition they are manufactured way outside of my "Midwest" zone potentailly adding substantial shipping costs. There are other window manufacturers that also have a 1 3/8 IGU that are closer … like little known Timeline (Wisconsin), but their NFRC data is harder to find. Here are a few words about the condensation issue

Posted By Oberon at a totally different website...
if someone is using a surface 4 coating then attention to indoor humidity is extremely important.

Surface 4 coatings are interesting for a couple reasons.

First, despite the fact that center-of-glass temperature is going to be about 9°F colder (assuming delta T of outside 0°, inside 70°) than the same IG without the coating, a person standing in front of the window is actually going to feel warmer than they would standing in front of a window without the surface 4 coating because the coating is reflecting heat back into the room; the same heat that would have increased the glass temperature 9° if the coating wasn't there.

Second, keeping the same indoor/outdoor temperature difference from the previous paragraph, then the edge-of-glass (outer 2 1/2") will be only 3°F colder than would be the same IGU without the surface 4 coating.

While the temperature does drop at the edge-of-glass, it drops three times less in the area most likely to have condensation issues than it does in the area (center-of-glass) that doesn't normally see condensation.

I haven’t heard back from Inline after writing twice.

JenWeld said this.

Thank you for your patience as I researched your inquiry. We do not offer either of these Lo E options with the triple pane glass. The Lo E 189 is available only in our Vinyl products and the i89 is available only in our wood lines.

Apparently they are able to offer pretty low prices as they do not offer custom glass packages.

Posted By agagent3 on 11 Mar 2014 01:55 PM
We have been contemplating a new build, thus looking at windows. I just received a package estimate from Menards. I had them give me a price on their fiberglass Crestline Acclaim casement triple pane window. The estimate figures out to be $51 per square foot of glass. It seems to be a pretty good value. The performance values look to be ok; U=.20, SHGC=.18 and VT=.37. No information on infiltration rates. The way it appears to me the Acclaim window is manufactured by WeatherShield in Medford, WI. Does anyone have an informed opinion on that particular window?

Agagent: I currently have 25 year old Crestline wood iplus4 Windows in my home with no complaints.

Kb,
I talked to an engineer employed by Sunrise today and just happened to mention I89. He volunteered that it is essentially unavailable at this time but he expects it to be generally available this fall. He also said it is very costly as it requires thermally annealed glass and a much more delicate process compared to other coatings. Since your objective is "bang for the buck" you'll definitely want price quotes both ways. This same person stated that the Sunrise and Vanguard lines are the same in the casement and the "restoration" series differs only in that it has additional "fiberglass" stiffeners. He also stated that the NFRC site doesn't (yet) have data on the fixed glass version of the casement with the 1 3/8" glazing & advised just use the casement numbers for both operable and fixed.

Posted By Liebler on 11 Mar 2014 09:34 PM
Kb,
I talked to an engineer employed by Sunrise today and just happened to mention I89. He volunteered that it is essentially unavailable at this time but he expects it to be generally available this fall. He also said it is very costly as it requires thermally annealed glass and a much more delicate process compared to other coatings. Since your objective is "bang for the buck" you'll definitely want price quotes both ways. This same person stated that the Sunrise and Vanguard lines are the same in the casement and the "restoration" series differs only in that it has additional "fiberglass" stiffeners. He also stated that the NFRC site doesn't (yet) have data on the fixed glass version of the casement with the 1 3/8" glazing & advised just use the casement numbers for both operable and fixed.

Liebler, I owe you a cold one!

Backpedaling a bit, if the i89 is price prohibitive, then the clear advantage Cardinal had is somewhat diminished. So, a window like Okna that uses Guardian glass (Clima Guard) is comparable. Okna does not have a Michigan presence but their nearest dealer is Triple S remodeling near Ft Wayne In.

( Interesting items in bold)

Low-E Products - #3 Surface	Vis Trans	ReflectOut	ReflectIn	UVTrans	SHGC	Argon	Air
ClimaGuard 80/70	81%	13%	13%	41%	0.699	0.271	0.315
AGC Comfort E2™	76%	16%	14%	44%	0.736	0.309	0.348
AGC Comfort E-PS™	74%	17%	16%	44%	0.734	0.29	0.331
Cardinal LoE2 - 180™	79%	15%	15%	27%	0.685	0.26	0.306
Pilkington Energy Advantage™	77%	17%	17%	55%	0.756	0.296	0.337
PPG Sungate® 400	78%	14%	14%	32%	0.679	0.278	0.321

Double glazed: 3.0mm clear glass, 1/2” Gap, Air and 90% Argon/10% Air filled.

Kb,
I've received cross section drawings of the Sunrise casement windows and must correct what I had said earlier. They do indeed have TWO lines of "bulb" seals around the operable sash of the casements. I'm struggling with the details of mounting them mid wall without major thermal bridging while maintaining my air barrier(s). My walls will be "double stud" with a "thin brick" exterior with an over all wall thickness of about 13" and I want the glass close to the center. My tentative thought is to make the openings in the stud walls about 4" larger than the windows then use 2x4s horizontally under the window attach points and a 2x2 on the inner and outer perimeter filling the spaces between the 2x4s & 2x2s with 1 1/2" EPS then cap with Thermoply (it's 5/32 thick). The window will sit in a "frame" of Thermoply which will be the air barrier but there will be a 2x4 behind each mounting screw. An exterior 'frame extension' of cellular PVC 1x2 will "space" the window frame from the thin brick. And an interior jamb extension made from custom ripped cellular PVC 1x .

Posted By Liebler on 12 Mar 2014 02:34 PM
Kb,
I've received cross section drawings of the Sunrise casement windows and must correct what I had said earlier. They do indeed have TWO lines of "bulb" seals around the operable sash of the casements. I'm struggling with the details of mounting them mid wall without major thermal bridging while maintaining my air barrier(s). My walls will be "double stud" with a "thin brick" exterior with an over all wall thickness of about 13" and I want the glass close to the center. My tentative thought is to make the openings in the stud walls about 4" larger than the windows then use 2x4s horizontally under the window attach points and a 2x2 on the inner and outer perimeter filling the spaces between the 2x4s & 2x2s with 1 1/2" EPS then cap with Thermoply (it's 5/32 thick). The window will sit in a "frame" of Thermoply which will be the air barrier but there will be a 2x4 behind each mounting screw. An exterior 'frame extension' of cellular PVC 1x2 will "space" the window frame from the thin brick. And an interior jamb extension made from custom ripped cellular PVC 1x .

That sounds interesting. How are you going to deal with the slope on the sill?

I am strongly considering the side mountings for smaller windows. Larger units will need some sort of shim support to rest on, shims can be measured and selected and set prior to setting the unit. Bevel and counter bevel shims are quick but oversized and more thermally bridged. There are at least 3 options available.
• GRK TOPSTAR Shim Screw
• Jamb Jack screws
• Masonry clips

Intus appears to use something akin to Masonry clips, Zola supplies German screws similar to The GRK Topstars or Jam Jacks. I haven’t yet discovered other Euro methods.