How much do you think you'll save w/out a GC? I'd think in this slow market you'd get quite a deal. Plus w/ a house that size, one mistake could cost you plenty. At least hire one as a consultant to make sure your contractors are doing things right.

slenzen: I estimate I will save at least $150,000 as I don't think many contractors would take on this project with less than that in their pocket. I am sure I will make some mistakes, but I highly doubt they will add up to so much that it will negate my savings.

I have been to the International Builder's show twice, have read dozens of books (probably over a hundred) on everything from contracts, to lighting to framing etc. I may hire a contractor as a consultant or to be on site periodically to check up on stuff and also may have my architect make site visits. I have come a long way and in the end I think my intelligence and concern with detail will make up for lack of experience.

I have already caught lots of mistakes by my architect and grading engineer such as: grading engineer was designing drywells all over to absorb roof drainage etc. when I discovered we have a storm sewer that I can legally tie into running in front of my lot (he was supposed to have checked at my request but never did). How much do you think that saves us? My architect had the elevations off by a foot, how many problems would that have caused? I also saved the excavator hours by giving him a 50 year old map showing the sewer lines when he went out to cap the old sewer. The markout from the city was incorrect and the map was accurate.

I am being really careful to hire competent subs also, not the cheapest I can find.

My point is there are tons of things that can go wrong, and I am well aware of the mistakes that everyone is going to make. But, I am planning ahead paying attention to every last detail (including the 6" the architect stole out of my shower for no reason, which I made him put back).

Sarayale,

Good luck with your project.  Please keep us informed about your progress.

Building a home not only takes knowledge but it also takes a lot of patience and persistence to get things done the way you want. 

Either you or your representative should check daily the quality of work performed.  Correcting mistakes should be done as soon as possible.  Waiting too long to correct a mistake can greatly increase the cost.

My first thought is of liability.  I don't think it's a reasonable expectation to get through a project that big with NO mistakes.  If you're hiring a GC & something big goes wrong, you should have some recourse against him/her.  If you're doing it on your own & something happens, it's all on you.  It would be one thing if you were building a small, simple house - but this is a very large project.  Personally I would not take it on myself.  I can speak from personal experience, on a much smaller scale.  Our first house was an old fixer-upper.  I'm a pretty handy guy & have some experience, so I wasn't concerned - but on more projects than not, I ran into something I didn't know how to handle.  It caused delays & stress until I got it figured out.  Knowledge is one thing, experience is another.

Another thought - a project this big is going to easily take 6+ months.  I don't know what you do for a living, but you need to factor in lost wages/opportunity cost if you're going to be a full-time GC.

MountainStone, We're on the same path. We are nearly two years into designing our family home and trying to do so with a middle class budget in mind. We have incorporated all seven of your suggestions above, as well as eliminating/scaling back on many of the finish details. Unfortunately, we have been getting bids that are nearly double the average home building costs here! SIP's are much more costly than I have been led to believe. Finding the right builder will be key. As someone with little construction experience besides "lifetimes" of research over the past year or two, I'm finding it very frustrating to not know if these builders are even trying to be economical. Why is it so hard to build a sturdy, tight building without spending a fortune and selling a kid or two? I don't mean to rain on your parade - I just want to share of my recent experiences on a seemingly similar project. Good luck on your project. I'd be happy to send you our specs if you want to compare notes.

mapnerd: That is one of the reasons I am self contracting. We are using icfs and the builders here don't even know what that is and will charge you double if they are not successful in convincing you to give it up. I figured if my builder is not experienced in the foundation of the house, what is the point of paying for him to learn on the job. That is the most important part of the house.

Hang in there and keep looking for a builder you can work with. You might get a better price if you do a cost plus agreement, but you need to be very involved to make sure the subs and materials are being purchased at competitive prices, since you contractor might not care that much since he is not paying.

mapnerd and other owner/builders,

in most cases when an owner builder solicits for bids you will pay more than an experienced GC. From past experiences suppliers and sub-contractors know that O/B's are learning as they go, will make mistakes that affect their subcontract work, costing the sub -time, money and effort thru the whole "hand holding" process.
O/B's are also a one shot deal, with no future business potential that is realized with an on going General Contractor.
Sometimes the premium you pay would offset the GC's discount. Because af lack of scheduling experience expect the construction time to take longer, causing additional loan payments and premiums for loan extentions.

2 years ago I quoted $225,000.  for a turkey home, the owner insisted he wanted to GC the project and just have us install the shell. When the job was complete I asked him what he had in it? $228,000. with the oak stair upgrade. So unless ya just want to say "I did it myself" you should reconsider letting the Pro doing it, especially in this economic climate, there are many good builders available.

We do many shells for O/B's I have only heard one that said he would do it again

Very well put.  Generally, I don't recommend people being their own GC unless they have the skills to do a large portion of the work themselves or they are in the construction industry and have a general knowledge of the area and homebuilding.  Remember, there are a lot of subs to hire for a large house, likely  engineering, excavation,  well driller, septic, foundation, framing, roofing, window and door sub, mason to build fireplace and chimney,  Utility contracts and easements, electrical, plumbing, hvac, insulation,  energy efficiency expert with blower door, drywall, painting, trim carpentry, cabinetry, hardwood flooring, tilework, glass shower enclosures, siding, gutters,  landscaping, paving, etc.  Most GC’s employ 10-30 different subs on a job. If you are doing this yourself and getting a minimum of 3 quotes from contractors you prequalify, you can easily be looking at 50-90 bids.  You damn well better make sure each and every one of them has inurance and workers comp.  Scheduling and coordination is a huge factor.  I was talking a while back with a friend who is a GC.  His point was that as a full time job, he can manage 4-5 sub 2000 ft houses at a time, 2 houses is the 3-4000 ft range, any house bigger than 5000 ft is a full time job managing it for ~ 6 months to make it work. He expects to be on site at any house he has under construction every day.

For my own house, I built it for slightly less then the average costs in the area ~20% less.  However I did most of the work.  I only hired 3 subs I did not already know and they were referrals from construction professionals I trust. 

One of the things you have to keep in mind is that certain trades have very different price schedules for Pro’s and non Pro’s  In plumbing fixtures etc it can be 30% more for you to buy something then a licensed plumber with an agreement at the facility.  Lighting is the same way and Cabinetry is definitely the same way. 

The other thing to remember is that shit happens. The utility company took 8 months to install the utility poles and connect power.  1 week after I got power, my house got hit by lightning and fried the transformer, meter and a lot of wiring.  A GC is used to rolling with these things because every job has these problems. 

A very good GC makes a good living. Bad GC's go bankrupt.  I thing the myth of an owner builder saving 30% on construction costs is not real unless they are doin the building themselves and have lots of time  On the other hand, with the right attitude it can be fun, and you can get exactly what you want.

Cheers
eric

I disagree that you will pay subs more as an owner builder. Subs are very eager for work right now and if you get enough bids you can make sure you are getting a fair price. For my demolition, I was quoted about $15,000 from several guys and many other prices less than that. The guy I finally hired was $7300 and he included capping my sewer and removing a shed from a rental property (that was not included in the other higher bids). This guy is an excavator and I believe he gave me a good price because he wants my excavating job. He also recycles and separates all the junk and is thus able to dispose of it cheaper (I am guessing, he did not mention this). He works with his sons and thus everything stays in the family. If you take the time, and you will have to expend a lot of time, to interview and find good subs, and get accurate bids and put together a detailed contract, you should not have to pay more.

I am not sure a GC would have gotten 6-8 bids on the demo. He might have just hired the guy he always uses. If you let people know you are getting bids for everything they will give you better prices. I told my icf distributor that I would be getting bids from others for the same block and the price automatically dropped. I did get another bid that will save me $5,000. Everything adds up.

As an owner builder, since you are not making a living doing this, you can expend the time to get better prices. If a GC spent the time I am spending he would go broke as he would only be able to do one project every two years. If you can preplan before the interest clock is ticking on loans, you will be okay. Obviously, I am doing all of this before we break ground, so everything is in place when we start.

My brother did two complete renovations. The first was with a GC who was the worst he could have hired. It took forever, he wasted tons of extra money on rent while the house was getting fixed, and the guy tried to substitute inferior materials.

The next house he renovated he GCed himself, he hired a handyman to oversee, his sister in law to price out materials and subs, and he finished in half the time and was much more satisfied.

Granted the first builder was horrible and probably the worst you could ever hire except for the guy who just runs off with your money, but he was very pleased with the second project. Were there mistakes, yes, but the first house had no fewer mistakes and caused him much more aggravation and wasted money.

Ishould have clarified my comment about "getting bids". I am not an owner/builder. Even if I wanted to be, banks here won't loan to owner/builders unless their background is in construction and they have a lot of capital. I am complaining that the high bids I have been getting are from GC's. It is a real struggle here to find a GC who will work together with me on getting bids from subs. They all want to just take your plans/specs and then come back six weeks later with a price. What advice would you give someone in their search for the "right" type of builder on a home that doesn't follow the more common building practices for that area?

sarayale,

You can disagree all you want but I have 39 years of experience in my back pocket that says otherwise. I hope your not a lawyer or doctor cause that an automatic 5% upcharge

 there are exceptions to the rule, but you still don't know if you got a cheaper price than a GC, you just know you got a better price than all the rest of the bids.

case in point ; on a recent shell build I told the O/B I would help him on the Overhead door and fireplace purchase, I saved him $600 on a $1500. door , I saved him $700 on the $2,900 fireplace and still made $300 myself on the FP.

Drywall Supplies .......... There are at least 3 price points: off the street that's You, GC that s me / and DW subs who buy the most and deserve the best price.

Don't quit your day job ;)  You said it, you will expend a lot of time.


The top 3 words a GC hates to hear ....."but I thought" 

mapnerd;

I think that is the norm, usually GC's sub bids are confidential, unless you are doing a cost plus contract or hiring a GC as a consultant?

If you are excluding the GC from portions of the work don't expect him to be anxious to help you with bids that he will make nothing on.

Lump sum contracts are always the best (in my opinion) less surprises.

T&M contracts almost never work out for the home owner, you never know where the end is.

T&M is good for the contractor that does not know what he is doing, in fact there is no incentive to shop price for you, it just cuts his % down

There is no definite answer. It depends on too many things so I don't see too much of a point going back and forth. But I will add that I am not so stupid to just buy drywall for a 12,000 square foot house at retail. Why wouldn't I let my sub buy it for me under his account or include it in his bid if he can get a better price. And, many subs are willing to pass discounts along to their customers to get the business. In addtion, there may be some suppliers that will give me the builder discount, not all, but some might and I just need one with a good price.

sarayale;

be careful, it is a slippery slope in dealing with sub's I have seen almost everything, ....not for profit subs? what good is business if there is no profit?  sure your sub will let you get it under his account and you could be also paying for a few side jobs for material getting  diverted. If you squeeze a guy too much they will figure out a way to get back out of you.
Good luck you have a true learning experience ahead

Looks like a great place for $100/sf.  Wonder if the owner did some work himself.


from cement.org Nov 09

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“The Wellhouse” is an affordable, durable, sustainable concrete home in Waupaca, Wisconsin.  Designed by Ken Dahlin of AIA Genesis Architecture, LLC, and Built by John Durrant of Elm Valley Carpentry, this energy efficient home was built for roughly $100/sq. ft. and showcases new green building technologies. 

The owner, Jay Radtke, chose a concrete framing system for its thermal mass.  Along with the passive solar features, the thermal mass of concrete helps keep energy costs down.  Concrete, steel, and Novomesh were used to help protect the home and its inhabitants in the case of severe weather or crime. The home is also finished with Hardie Plank fiber cement siding, a more durable and energy-efficient alternative to vinyl or wood siding. 

State-of-the-art HVAC systems, combined with concrete flooring and radiant in-floor heating help reduce the amount of energy needed to sustain the indoor temperature. 

For more information on AIA Genesis Architecture, please click here. 

For more information on Elm Valley Carpentry, please call John Durrant at (715) 572-0922.

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Nice home!

Mike,

How much of a difference are we talking about, percentage wise?  If you solicit bids from 3-4 reputable builders and they all return numbers higher then what you want/ can afford, then there is a disconnect somewhere.  I remember a while back when you showed a proposed design for a house you wanted to build.  I think when I ball parked the construction costs, I came up with 400K cutting corners and 600K to do it correctly and you said it was 300 K to build.  Are you sure the numbers you are looking at are realistic?    One of the things you should consider is sitting down with the builder or GC you like the best and be honest with him.  Tell him what your budget is and ask what he can do or what things or compromises could be made to save costs?  A good builder will work with you within reason.  Remember that a spec house is usually a common design with all of the kinks worked out. You are building a one of a kind.  It may even be worth your while paying someone to look at the framing layout and mechanical layout and suggest changes to make it easier to build.  Another possibility is to leave portions of the house unfinished for a later date. 

Good Luck

Chris:

Who is talking about not for profit subs? I am paying subs for labor and it does not cost them anything to let me buy under their account to get a discount, or to tell the supplier to give me their pricing. I also never said anything about squeezing subs, I talked about getting estimates. I am well aware that subs need to make a profit and want to make sure they do, no one should work for free. And, you are right, if the sub is not making money, they will find a way to steal it out of you and/or hit you up for extras. I actually do not like to bargain down people for that very reason, I am afraid I will get shortchanged on the quality of the work.

Sara,

Can I ask a question? I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, and if you choose not to answer, that's fine. But....how did you decide that you needed a 12,000 sq ft house? If it's what you want & you can afford it, then go for it - just wondering if there was a specific reason, like operating a business out of your home, lots of kids, etc. I'm just curious.