I am building a new home and want to know if anyone here has used an outdoor wood boiler (or any wood boiler for that matter) to heat the home. 

Our new home will be appx. 5,000 sq ft including LARGE 36x36 garage/shop and a 1500sq ft basement.

My plan is to use radiant floor heat in the basement slab and the garage slab.

I would like to know if I can employ the boiler with mini splits or HRV and HOW?

I also would like to know if I need to use the fancy subfloor radiant heat stuff for under hardwood should I choose to do radiant in the whole house.

Also, has anyone used the radiant baseboard heat with a boiler?

Thanks ahead of time.

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Additionally I intedn to build the home pretty tight and efficient. I will be using rigid foam outside my sheathing with sealed seams, I also will be using blown cellulose in the attic and stud cavities. I do not want the boiler to not have enough of a draw to work properly so I think radiant may be the best way to utilize the boiler.



By the way the home is located in Bloomington, Indiana 47401.

Generally speaking outdoor wood boilers are a bad idea from an environmental standpoint and currently a consortium of states are suing the EPA to get them banned completely. The reason is that they burn very inefficiently and smolder when there is not an active call for heat- this causes a lot of particulate and incomplete burning.
There are high mass indoor boilers that are good quality low emissions heat sources. These typically are fired once or twice a day and burn very hot for a short time and store the energy. That is what you want if wood is your thing and you want .

Cheers,
eric

Thanks for the response Eric but i am really not to worried about the popularity of the wood boiler. It does a great job for heating a large space with what I have a large FREE supply of....FIREWOOD. I am really looking to employ it with the best system possible for a large home. Thanks again.

Thanks for the response Eric but i am really not to worried about the popularity of the wood boiler.

You do realize that you are posting on a GREEN building site, don't you?

New York state dph info on outdoor boilers: http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/outdoors/air/owb/purchase.htm epa guidlines for wood boilers http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/index.html From the indiana law Blog "The Indiana Department of Environmental Management (IDEM) has developed draft rule language for a new rule, 326 IAC 4-3, concerning air emissions from outdoor hydronic heaters. By this notice, IDEM is soliciting public comment on the draft rule language. IDEM seeks comment on the affected citations listed and any other provisions of Title 326 that may be affected by this rulemaking. * * * This rulemaking only applies to outdoor hydronic heaters, also referred to as outdoor wood boilers or outdoor wood burning furnaces. Indoor wood heating appliances are already subject to federal emission limitations for new units. Indoor wood burning appliances and other sources of wood smoke are sufficiently different in potential emissions, stack heights, design, operating conditions, or frequency of operation to distinguish them from outdoor hydronic heaters. After a delay in proceeding following the request for public comments on the First Notice of Comment Period, IDEM is now proposing to move forward with this rulemaking. The proposed requirements in this rulemaking will not be effective until the rulemaking process is complete. The rulemaking process includes two public hearings before the Air Pollution Control Board: preliminary adoption and final adoption. At a minimum, this rulemaking would not be effective until late 2010. In an effort to control heating costs, Indiana citizens are increasingly turning to outdoor hydronic heaters to heat and provide hot water for their homes and other structures. Outdoor hydronic heaters are free standing appliances that burn wood or some other fuel to heat water. The heated water is pumped, typically through underground pipes, to the structure or multiple structures to be heated and the cooled water is returned to the outdoor hydronic heater for reheating. A unit typically looks like a small shed with a short smoke stack and is usually located in close proximity to the building to be heated. Outdoor hydronic heaters are much larger and differ in design, operation, and emissions produced from indoor wood stoves, pellet stoves, fireplaces, and barbecue pits. According to sales data provided by outdoor wood boiler manufacturers, the Northeastern States for Coordinated Air Use Management (NESCAUM) estimates that 7,518 units have been sold in Indiana since 1990. IDEM has received 41 formal complaints about smoke from outdoor wood boilers located around the state. Some local jurisdictions in Indiana have also received complaints about outdoor hydronic heaters, leading to local bans on the placement of new units in the cities of Indianapolis, Evansville, Petersburg, Loogootee, and Batesville. LaPorte has requirements in place to limit the emissions from new units. Currently, outdoor hydronic heaters are not regulated in Indiana at the state level, nor are they regulated at the national level. The Notice continues, at length, and includes summaries of public comments from the First Notice, plus the text of the Draft Rule." Personaly, I have one that I go by regularly on a local rail trail. The only way to describe it is a smoky, nasty mess. I like wood stoves, I burn wood regularly as my primary heat source. I am fine with quality highmass boilers. Most outdoor boilers Suck (by design), Contrast this with a Tarm boiler paired with sufficient hot water storage and you have an excelent combo. Not only that but you don't need as much wood as the efficiencys are much higher. Again, I am not trying to discourage you from buying a wood boiler, just do your homework. Cheers, Eric

I do ICF Hybrid, i am all about building green and energy efficiency and insulation and all that...but people have been burning wood forever, i mean it's the basic way of heating since dirt was new.

Eric, I already have a Heatmor 400 outdoor wood boiler that I have used for the past year. I have no complaints about the quality and the consistency of the burn it provides with QUALITY SEASONED firewood. I do not burn anything other than hardwood that has been seasoned on my property or deadfall trees from my property. I don't really have any issues with people complaining because I live in the sticks and our new home will be built on a farm without neighbors to complain as well.
I could see how a state like New York might pass legislation that would limit a persons options for heating their home...however in the state of Indiana I do not forsee that legislation passing just my .02 cents.

I did a lot of research and decided on the heatmor that I purchased based off relaiblity and low maintenance. I do not have the issue of smoldering smoke rolling out of the stack becaus of a baffle system that does not allow the stove to continue to draw air like some less expensive models.

Now, lets get back to the topic in my original post...employing the outdoor furnace I own with some energy efficent heating options in my large sq ft home. Thanks for all the input and the remider of the popularity of the outdoor furnaces in New York....

Also, that statistic you offer....7,518 units sold since 1990 in the state of indiana. So, in 23 years there have been 326 units sold each year....and only 41 complaints. Doesn't really seem like a big deal to me. Everyone that I know in the state of Indiana that doesn't live in suburbia hell heats with wood in some way, shape or form.

As Eric mentions, once you add a large water storage tank to a wood burner, the slow burning and smoldering go away. Hopefully any laws will recognize this.

The storage tank also can be heated via electric heater element, when you're on vacation for example and can't load the burner\boiler. In addition, my electric company has time-of-day service (10PM to 6AM) that which has dirt cheap electricity but that only works if you have storage.

The storage tank also can be heated via electric heater element

Or a heat pump (for much greater efficiency).

What does that look like jonr? I am not sure why I would want to use ther wood boiler to warm the wwater then use electricity to warm the storage tank of water? Seem like the electricity or heat pump would be a secodary system in addition to the wood? Can someone draw this system up in a simple diagram?

Secondary heat (electricity or heat pump) is useful when you can't or don't want to feed the wood boiler. With a tank, you may have the option of running during off peak hours (cheaper electricity) or during daytime hours (greater efficiency from an air source heat pump).

A heat pump will be more efficient with radiant floors (or walls or ceilings) than with smaller radiators.

Without a room by room and whole house heat load calculations it's hard to make credible sensible recommendations. You can heat just about any type & size of building with mini-splits, radiant baseboard, fin-tube, a large sack of cats, or burning toast, but the cost & complexity depends on the actual heat loads and the amount of appropriate space you have for the radiators/cats/toast.

A 10PM to 6AM off-peak rate period can be pretty ideal for heating with heat pumps in a higher-R house, since those are the hours with the largest heat loads, and you can pre-heat the house to a somewhat elevated temp and set-back at 6AM to get the most out of the thermal mass of the house, and turn the thing to OFF during any high-peak hours (often 3PM-7PM on many plans.)

Wood stoves tend to work far more efficiently than wood boilers is properly sized and located fully indoors. Wood boilers have both standby and distribution losses that give up heat to the great outdoors, so even if it's running at a really great 80-85% combustion efficiency on a full out burn-to-self-extinction, the heat coming off the jacket and the hydronic plumbing aren't accruing to the conditioned space. And it takes power to pump that hot water too. If the fuel is essentially free and grown sustainably (which can easily be the case if you have a dozen acres of hardwoods or more to manage) it's fine, as long as you always burn in it's higher-efficiency/lower-emissions mode, and can deal with the lower efficiency. You'll use more wood than if heating with a better-class wood stove, but not 2x as much wood. If you use buffer tanks for thermal storage, putting the buffer tanks inside the house means their standby losses support the heat load rather than being lost to the sky.

When your loads are extremely low, the efficiencies hardly matter. But without a heat load calculation there's no saying which is the "right" way to go, for the planet or your wallet.

As in most cases, the first thing is to get the shell as tight and well insulated as possible. Since you are considering in floor radiant for the garage and basement, I would suggest ~R10-15 of eps insulation under the slab of both. Figure out how to have a thermal break where the garage door is going to be, and understand that garage doors are often the weak link in a tight house(since you indicated heating the garage). Once you have construction details, a careful Manual J heat loss analysis will show you what you need for the boiler and water storage capacity. If the shop/garage is physically connected to the house, insure that it is carefully airsealed where it joins the house. Also consider a vented outdoor storage area for VOC’s gas, paints, etc. IF you are using radiant, a HRV would be installed as a standalone system, typically exhausting air from laundry, bathrooms and kitchen, supplying fresh tempered air to the bedrooms and living areas. I would use ashre 62.2 2010 as a guide for the air exchange rate for the HRV. What do you want the minisplits for? AC ? backup heat? Both?

Thanks Dana I am going to work with the architect to figure out how to get those heat load calculations going once we finalize our floor plan modifications. I am also going to see what kind of bids I can get to use ICF's for the exterior walls of the house....not sure if that is in the budget yet. Honestly what I am trying to do is decide what components make up the BEST system possible for the several ways I am interested in heating so I can pursue each route when getting bids.

Eric I have all of the elements you mentioned for the shell tight. I intend to use 3 inches of EPS on the exterior sheathing of the house and the wall the home shares with the garage. Not sure about the thermal break for the garage door area...how have others done that task? I do plan to install a full length deck drain about 1 ft inside the garage from where the door will touch. Maybe i could use that deck drain as my thermal break?

I am interested in the HRV and mini splits because I am not 100% confident that the house I am going to build will require enough draw for the boiler system I currently have on the house I live in. I really would like to make a good decision early based off input from the site.

I really haven't really heard anything on here other than do this do that....or its impossible to estimate without actual numbers. Actually what I would like to know is someone that has these items in their house and how they designed it and how it works for them.

Is radiant in the basement worth the money, is it good to use baseboard heat to keep the house warm....those are questions that I would like answered. Not hypothetical answers but real world experiences or advise. Opinions are good as well. But i would really just like to get a straight answer on some if the ideas I have.

Baseboard heat seems cool to me, but is it just like radiant?

I don't want to do radiant and regraet the extra money because I have the ductwork in the house for the A/C system already and I'm not using it for heating.

Lots to learn here

you're building a large well insulated house; the issue is that there are not that many houses built to these specs in existence, so a lot of this is to some degree experimental. Minisplits will work great in a very tight superinsulated home and there are real world examples including several which have been presented at conferences recently, but there is a lot of specific detail work required to get there. Whether that will happen in your house isn't possible for us to know. Baseboard heat will be safer; it will work and keep the house warm, as will geothermal or a large standard HVAC system. But these could very well be overkill and far more expensive to install and to run. If I were building it, I'd use minisplits and I'd know it would perform, but again, I cannot vouch for how your house will be built.

If you're going to use your basement, you'll need some type of heat. Again, anything will work, but radiant is the most obvious. You can put the tubes in with minor expense and decide later if you want to use them. If you end up with some type of hot water system, hook them up; if not, install a minisplit. Either way, pay careful attention to (what may appear to be over-) insulating your floor and to installing complete thermal breaks; both items that virtually all "standard" builders ignore to the detriment of the future occupants of the home.

One thing that makes me nervous is that so many of the posters are looking to build high performing houses and try to cut costs by shorting the insulation somewhere. Short term thinking! This is where the money should be spent and not on the granite counters.

I agree Bob. We are going to pass on quite a few of the high end features in the new home and do couter tops from red oak boards I harvested and sawed myself. We are also doing painted cabinets so we can use poplar that I harvested a sawed myself. Lots of corners cut on finishes so we can maximize the real stuff that matters for the overall quality of the home. Thaks for the input

We want to help you, but it is very hard to give advice when you are asking nebulous questions and we don’t have any information to go on. Initially you said you were basing your heat on an outdoor boiler. I gave you some things to think about. The advice I would give is very different if your max heat loss was 9000 btu’s vs 90,000 btus on design day. Think of it this way, if you asked me what kind of vehicle you needed to tow a trailer, I could recommend a f550 quad cab diesel or a Honda civic- both would be great answers, depends on whether you are towing a canoe or a houseboat. My house is around 14,000 btus max heat loss. I know this based on careful manual J analysis and comparison to actual fuel usage. I have a propane boiler with hydronic baseboard in the main floor. The basement is a workshop and has a separate zone and circulator pump, but I have never added any baseboard because it never goes below 50° F anyway, so I don’t heat it. I have a small, centrally located wood stove that heats the whole house quite nicely. I have a Fantech HRV with a standalone distributions system. I have no AC, but the house was designed with a minisplit in mind for cooling/ dehumidification. It is a sun tempered design with both solar DHW and a solar air heater. If I was evaluating your plans, I would need to know the following information before giving further advice:_____________ Energy____What energy sources are available to you? Electricity, Propane, Nat gas, heating oil, wood? Do you have average costs for each fuel type in your area? Do you require AC or is it optional. What are you targeting for ACH50? What are you targeting for ventilation rates for the structure? Are there any special occupant issues? Do you cook a lot indoors? Large stove? Ie Viking or similar quasi professional range? Cook with gas or electricity. Design____What does the house look like? Compact structure or very decentralized design? This has a bearing on how effective a point source heat system will work. Basement______How much of the basement will be underground? Will it have a walkout ie exposed wall? What will the R value of the foundation insulation be and what will the insulation under the slab be? What will the basement be used for? What will the floor covering be? Garage? What will it be used for? Does it need to be heated to 70° or are you just trying to keep it at 50-55? Insulation under the garage slab? Main Living Area above ground_____ What is the wall construction and insulation plan( ie wall stack up)? floor coverings? Total square footage of windows on each side of the house, and is there shading on the east and west sides? How about the south side. What glazing type will you use? Ceilings What R values are you targeting for the walls. Start with that and we will go from there. Cheers, Eric