At ICFHybrid and Lbear
Your history of offensively post toward my opinions have been quoted, your not fooling anyone but the native.....

your not fooling anyone but the native.....

Your opinions should be able to stand or fall on their own merit. I suggest a review of GBT historical threads as many of the things you have been saying have been well covered before.

Speaking of brushing up, in English, we use "you're" which is called a contraction because it is a stand in for "you are". "Your" is properly used as a possessive like in the opening portion of your sentence.

Personal attacks are SOP around here. If you have a different opinion, don't have an advanced degree in engineering or haven't used a "world-class" architect, etc., etc. you will likely not fit in.

We actually install ducted systems along with mini-splits when ever we can. Our specialty is radiant floor heating so we have had to answer questions about IAQ. More than this, I installed a Mitsubishi in my own 1921 farmhouse. The renovation was from the bones out and though not a passive house still qualifies as very efficient in terms of btu. sq.ft. as the heating load for a three story 2100 sq.ft. home is 30mbtuh. With considerable glass and the connected hot house the cooling load came to 1.5 ton so we installed a single head at the top of the staircase. The ACCA room-by-room Manual 'J' heat load suggested the S.E. master bedroom may require its own head, we ran frig lines and electrical to accommodate (not an easy or inexpensive task) but i decided it was too big and ugly and perhaps we could do without. All was good until we decided a partners' desk would be nice and added two PC's, printer and desk lights.

The head is going in... If ducted, this would be a balancing equation with full-time VAV fan, the inevitable imbalance in the thermal dynamics of everyday living could be addressed and adjustments made.

More real progress could be made here and elsewhere were more respect afforded the curious and those with differing opinions instead of this tiresome "we already figured this out, business". I admit that I have learned more of the derogatory epithets than any useful building science of late. Entrenched opinions held by people with vested interests, both financial and emotional, are the antithesis of good science. What is called for here is fresh ideas, new challenges and serious reflection on the subject at hand.

ricky makes some valid points. The edge in his argument comes from his frustration at the lack of balance.

Mini-splits are very efficient and when properly applied are hard to beat, but as ricky correctly points out, they are not for every application. If they were, you would see a lot more of them. They do not address IAQ as readily as some forced air systems do, since they lack the versatility.

To me, the future is in an integrated air handling system along the lines of a Zehner or Daikin if you have the luxury of building a new house. We will not save the planet by building passive houses however, since the bulk of our energy savings will be through the use of more efficient retrofit solutions, including more efficient appliances, better insulation and more sophisticated controls.

ricky. Now is the time to duck!

The best part about the revolution in homebuilding going on now (which was boosted by the introduction of Passive House a decade ago) is the huge increase in "out of the box" thinking; especially in this industry where true advancement has been moribund for decades. Whether improvements to the envelope or new technology leads is still to be decided, but at least we are on the road. As far as minisplits, a) they are new in this country and b) are making huge leaps in technology so we'll know the results in 10-20 years. They have been in widespread use across the world; we're just late to join in.

More details about the design; planning to use R-40 walls and R-50 roof polyurethane foam SIP panels and Marvin or Eagle triple pane argon filled windows and doors. Large bank of windows facing almost due south should help with heating in winter. I'm in Northern Michigan lower peninsula. 48 x 30 cape with vaulted ceiling main level, pre-cast concrete "Superior Walls" R-16 walk out lower level. Radiant in slab heat for lower level only, no cooling. I was considering condensing boiler (propane tank) for radiant lower level and hi-velocity (2" duct) air handler with hot water coil for heat and DX cooling coil for main level. But I think the mini splits would be a better selection for main level. I'll just have to get used to their look, maybe paint them camo or something! I suppose I could eliminate the propane tank and gas with an electric water heater for domestic and radiant. Does this make sense? From my recent readings, the house sounds like a passive home design. Not my original plan. I didn't even know what that was a week ago. I just want a highly insulated comfortable home. Sounds like I definitely need outdoor air. HRV or ERV.....what's the difference? Bob I: you mention ductless HRV......could you please elaborate? Thanks to all!

Good idea ICF Hybrid! I found a couple pics to share with architect. Thanks.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 12 Mar 2014 06:33 AM

No no, we want to see the HVAC layout ......

Who's this "we" you keep referring to? I've been here for years along with a lot of other regulars. You are a recent arrival of a few weeks who has spurned normal protocol and friendly suggestions to brush up on a few bits of past history before making obnoxious posts.

"We" would definitely like to see more pic's ;-)
BTW what was your total heatloss on the building?

In order to condition air you must move it. The "through" of a single head mini-split is limited as is its effectiveness. Multi-head systems work better, but have their limitations, as ricky correctly points out.

We design many walk-outs with a condensing water heater in a combi heating and DHW system. The one we are working on is located in the UP and will be driven entirely by a heat pump. We think outside the Mini-split box, since there are many viable options tailored to the individual and his personal goals.

ricky makes some valid points. The edge in his argument comes from his frustration at the lack of balance.

Badger, is that really a fair assessment of what Ricky_005 was doing? Maybe you missed this statement of his;

"If your building a mud hut in the jungle or a addition to a existing home, yes I would say a mini split would be the way to go ..... You build a 2500 + S.F. you would have to be nuts to strictly use only mini splits"

Do you call that balance?

I think the real frustration comes from a bunch of people who have stagnated the industry for years and who are now unsettled at how innovations are coming in. Year after year at the local building expo, I am surprised to see the same guys there selling the same stuff they did 30 years ago. Last year, one of the fellows was even talking about coal hoppers with nostalgia. No ductless minis in his booth. If someone wants to be the last one servicing dinosaur technology, I would applaud their dedication. I still have an oil burner in a place it doesn't make sense to upgrade yet. But, in new construction, we need to be looking forward in all ways and continuing to call a two stage compressor cutting edge technology is just marketing garbage.

Speaking about marketing, you wouldn't know anything about Ricky_005's arrival, would you? You know how GBT hates an industry shill.

Sounds like a great evelope. The minisplits are ductless, the HRV does need to be ductless, and you need one. Radiant heat can be problematic in a superinsulated passive solar home as they can get overheated. What happens is that the heat comes on at 5am, raises the heat to 68, then the sun comes out and temps go up. There are more discussions about these homes, and more imput from knowledgeable builders on greenbuildingadvisor.com.

You'll need to be careful about air sealing, since the house needs to be very tight to work well. It'll be all worth it when you move in.

I have loved the ease of heating these houses and the advantages of getting away from fossil fuels. Not everyone agrees, and that's fine; it'll get sorted out over time.

I left stick building sites since they could not think outside the box, or local demographics, ‘world class” ‘global marketing’ that has suppressed the auto/aircraft American worker. Read a new pole Americans want lower cost living, e-bills, construction. In most cases, the ‘mainstream’ builder pre-determines a 0-15% higher construction cost to design-build green net zero or passive, yet I keep reading of successful builders that are doing it at or below standard light weight stick construction. From what I have seen it is just a matter of time, either the American steps up or some other country(s) will. I see many countries that were never competitive here in the US in aircraft/auto/power sports industry that are present now (global marketing, profit sharing) that build home in other countries with life cycles past our average 40 years, far past it. They also are making a mark in renovation/restorations. Consolidation, automation, labor and material cost reductions. Advance degrees? Add global experience, some smart foreign nationals and Americans being pushed out of other industries to construction where there is still money to made and plenty of room for advanced technology no one understands.

Ricky is challenging zoning methods. He seems to think ducks dampened electronically have a longer service life than minisplit line sets, who can prove him wrong? Show some data of your global field findings or, an average life expectancy and/or repair or replacement cost over that life? Being a noob or vet of this site won’t alter that data, thinking it does is nuts! It does not depend on majority vote or group mentality, popular theory writing without pointing to data.

My opinion, if the MS lines are static and not subjected to movement (like hydraulic lines on a landing gear/aircraft) or high temp and pressure fluctuations (where triple wall lines of inner Teflon, outer Kevlar or CRES is used in aircraft), the life will probably be good 20-30 years. Run them outside in high temp, pressure, UV, small movement, condensation, exposed they will have a lower life, some cases much lower. The OEMS recommend foam insulation looks like, and a UV shield? Still nothing compared to a 2-3 braided wall designs used in aircraft or, automotive under the same environments. Ball valve seals, flares, copper lines, can also fail. Reason for concern, perhaps? They do also introduce an architect & life challenges if you run them outside up a wall, air handlers, etc..oems are claiming a 5% loss compared to 50 ducts, I’d like to see where that info came from a thermal thermo couple over some life test? The lines are tested to ASTM E243. I could not get a copy looks like a Eddy Current test at the OEM level revealing little about service life. I cannot talk to history since I am not a HVAC person with national data on seamless copper lines, if flared, correctly they should last, along with the proper outdoor insulation/protection.

Motorized or pneumatic auto dampened, ducts have challenges outside of condition space too. There are a lot of ways to obtain zoning good to think outside the box.

Posted By Bob I on 12 Mar 2014 11:07 AM
Sounds like a great evelope. The minisplits are ductless, the HRV does need to be ductless, and you need one. Radiant heat can be problematic in a superinsulated passive solar home as they can get overheated. What happens is that the heat comes on at 5am, raises the heat to 68, then the sun comes out and temps go up. greenbuildingadvisor.com.

You'll need to be careful about air sealing, since the house needs to be very tight to work well. It'll be all worth it when you move in.

I have loved the ease of heating these houses and the advantages of getting away from fossil fuels. Not everyone agrees, and that's fine; it'll get sorted out over time.

We have outdoor reset. A properly designed and controlled radiant slab will no more overheat than it would from solar gain. Something that few will complain about except perhaps the fella that called me to say is new 1200 sq.ft. vacation home in Northern Wisconsin has never been below 76°F. His system was poorly planned and installed. I am hardly a coal-burning neanderthal, having installed HVAC systems including radiant floors, in super-insulated an berm homes back in the 70's. Then again with condensing boilers and PEX tubing in the 80's. The point is, mini-splits don't always fit the American lifestyle or our larger homes. http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/average-home-sizes-around-the-151738

Radiant heat can be problematic in a superinsulated passive solar home as they can get overheated. What happens is that the heat comes on at 5am, raises the heat to 68, then the sun comes out and temps go up.

This concept appears to be much misunderstood. I have a radiant heated passive solar that isn't having this happen. I also have what is effectively a greenhouse solar collector attached and it still isn't happening. I'm sure it CAN happen somewhere, but I suspect the major problem is poor "passive solar" planning.

I'm also not too sure on the use of the term "superinsulated" as it has been thrown around quite a bit recently. Does it mean ANYTHING more than straight code done properly, or are we talking half the heat loss of code requirement or what?

Right ICF, there is no reason to experience passive solar overheating heating these days and we covered that topic quite well already:

Integrated PS and HR Discussion

I think code minimum done properly wouldn’t even be considered well insulated, much less super-insulated. I think super-insulated is likely a term more appropriate/suitable for describing Passive House, etc.

Bob, you said HRV needs to be ductless. Are you sure about that? Did you mean to say ducted? I spent some time on the Zehnder site. Looks like quality equipment. If they could add a little more supplemental heating maybe we wouldn't even need the mini splits.

Posted By Boyne on 12 Mar 2014 10:32 PM
Bob, you said HRV needs to be ductless. Are you sure about that? Did you mean to say ducted? I spent some time on the Zehnder site. Looks like quality equipment. If they could add a little more supplemental heating maybe we wouldn't even need the mini splits.

HRV and ERV systems all require ducts and vents .... either way your going to be running Ducts in your home....

Although carrier has a ERV system which is connected to the existing forced-air duct work system and the bathroom fan. So there is a minimal amount of extra duct work to be added. Not the best system in the world but should work fairly well under most circumstances. I personally would like to see better performance number out of the carrier ERV systems and will hunt for better alternative if available which would utilize existing forced-air duct work, will have to research it. Which there again I may end up running duct work just for the ERV to optimize where air is to be drawn out and where fresh air is to be released inside the envelope which would be the best method of getting the job done well.

I meant the minisplit can be ductless, but a (ducted) HRV is needed

HRV ducting is a far cry from high velocity ducting needed for forced air. My total air volume moved (for a large home) is less than 200 cfm. Some ducting goes down to 3" or smaller. I have to use a smoke generator to tell if a given vent sucks or supplies.

You can utilize placement of the supply and exhaust registers of the HRV system to help promote a flow pattern that keeps different sections of your home evened out.

The most difficult part of it was selecting the vent openings.