Yep I'm going to do something about it starting with NE heritage and our home of the US of A.

Yep, it is always amazing how corrupt scum bags turn to religion when things are not going well for them. We will take science over religion every time. We still have free country where people have a free choice what to believe. Religious issues should not be discussed on a forum like this.

We do agree on putting corrupt enterprises out of business. In fact, licensed professional engineers are sworn to up hold the public welfare and we are actually obligated to do so. Furthermore, we have even been solicited by a couple state attorney generals outside of our company operating jurisdiction to report companies worthy of this action because of our reputation of being quite aggressive and successful with this. So at least we agree on that…

I also sincerely appreciate you posting your company name. We and others have requested Jonr to do the same for several years to no avail. Frankly, I suspect he either works at Home Depot or is a WELs salesman. I have a low regard for people who hide behind anonymous forum names and sling BS at upstanding companies…and rest assured I will do my best to send them crawling back under the rock from hence they came…

Posting my companies site did not change the technical data you failed to respond to of the RUMFORDS and Builds I posted nor would Jonr's resume. Talk about resorting to tactics or distractions, I don't need to post my resume, you have not even begun to see my credentials. If the site wanted to see peoples resumes I am sure they would ask before they allowed them to post. You are not a MOD. I answered since I have nothing to hide and the mods did not delete your silly request. Having an Engineering degree does not make you an Engineer and better than everyone else.

Now scum bag storm chasers are profiting from selling media of dying little girl in Pilger. They'll probably rebuild out of wood stick and put themselves at risk all over again. We as a building community need to put an end to people putting money before lives. Eliminate the opportunity for media to profit from home destruction. I’ll be there soon to help the clean up effort and see what I can figure out.

We need to get back to our roots including our moto "IN GOD WE TRUST" and NEVER be afraid to up hold what this country was founded on that's right GOD/CHRIST and it SHOULD be allowed everywhere as FREEDOM OF SPEECH is, another thing this country was founded on, especially at times like this when people have died, little children, . Any scum bag that does not like it can leave as far as I'm concerned your not an American.

I find it interesting NE is being hit now....the home of still standing 18 century Straw Bales Homes replaced with mobiles homes that average $60-100,000 for junk that kills!

Things are going great for me technically and spiritually, I feel empowered and can't wait to quit my day job next Friday and begin to put an end to this destruction.

Detroit, Michigan  area has been interesting. Homes are completely run down, people are out of work, it is a community of depression due to the fall of the auto industry. Many foreclosures, you can buy many homes for taxes owed if you can find a job here. It is pretty pathetic to make fun or call people "losers" out of work or that have to work at places like "Home Depot"!! Obviously, some should perhaps get some religion in their lives and count their blessing's.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/06/19/pilger_nebraska_tornado_photo_why_stormchasing_has_become_unethical.html

I'd like to put this thread back on topic, I'll try and report on Pilger when I get there....here is a summary of where we are at. Feel free to let me know if  it needs correcting.....

Solar heat in the cleanest of all energy sources. The most common form of solar heating --- beyond the significantly effective passive solar heating mass strategies is solar water(thermal), which most commonly involves water or antifreeze circulating via an electronically controlled pump in a loop that heats the fluid up in collector panels (often roof or ground mounted) and dumps the heat through a heat exchanger into a supply tank. A benefit for SHW, relative to solar electricity, is that it represents a more efficient use of the suns energy; solar thermal is able to convert 60% - 70% of the suns energy into heat, compared to 15-20% PV panels. Solar thermal panels also perform much more efficiently than solar-electric panels in dappled or partially shaded environments.

In cold and cloudy climates like the NE, solar hot water (SHW) is best used for DHW loads, especially in smaller more efficient building’s. To use SHW for space heating, it would most frequently have to be integrated into a central boiler, requiring a heating system that may be more expensive and complicated than necessary. Additionally, as SHW’s output is reduced during the primary heating season it becomes a less efficient option for space heating than for the smaller load of DHW. This is not necessarily the case in cold and sunny regions, like many parts of the rockies and mid-west.

Solar Hot Air (SHA) or thermo-siphon air panels (TAP) operate under similar principles----air is heated in collector panels and circulated into the building----although use and distribution are a bit different. SHA is an open loop system, in which fresh air enters the unit and is heated before entering the building. SHA heaters can be used either as in-room space heaters or preheaters for ventilation systems.

All,
I want no part of the bickering, or  commentary about religion but have one point.

Solar air heaters are very effective and can be site built if you need to keep costs down. They are also not necessarily open loop, just as frequently they are recirculating existing room air.
 I see them as having several advantages over conventional passive solar. First they have little night time losses if the dampers are working properly- certainly less than equivalent window area. Secondly they can be placed on a vertical wall that does not have the same overhangs needed as with windows. When you don’t need heat, close off the outlet and don’t let the fan circulate. You don’t need to rely on sun angles and shading to reduce output. I think the easiest way to power solar dhw and solar air heaters is with a small pv panel. When the sun shines the pump circulates, when it doesn’t shine- it does not. When the sun has the maximum pv power yield, the pump runs the fastest- exactly when it should. I use both solar air heaters and a solar DHW on my own house.
Cheers,
Eric

Eric, how does your SAH design compare/differ from the DIY designs we have on Build it Solar?

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PopCanVsScreen/PopCanVsScreen.htm

Yes, they are certainly extremely effective, but you need to successfully blend them into your architecture if you care about such things. Agreed, windows really don't make much sense unless you have a nice view to the south...

Happy Summer Solstice and US soccer!

I like that solar DIY read you posted Sali, particularly,

“Its fine to speculate on what might help, but if you don't measure the actual performance carefully, you really don't know if a change helps or hurts performance. Right now, when you look across Youtube etc., it seems like we have a lot of speculation and not a lot of careful measurement going on. Its not that difficult or expensive to do side by side tests of collector designs and to measure the performance.”

Wouldn’t it be nice if we read less “speculation” on forums and more “measurements of actual performance” perhaps a Wells might help? Jonr? Wells? Or are you still working at Home Depot?  Boy, after working at this lab the past 4-months and some good test engineers I sure have a feel for modeling and math vs actual test and field data. I’ll be doing lots of the latter soon.

Like this one too,

“Measuring the absolute performance of a collector is difficult. A collectors performance depends on its design, but is also influenced by solar intensity, ambient temperature, wind and collector orientation -- all things that vary quite a bit from day to day and even minute to minute.”

Yep been there too, imagine that, look at all those variables that can change, what did he say, “minute to minute” lets add state to state, street to street, job site to job site, shall we? Making it VERY difficult to figure out ‘actuals” by math models and calculators, or lets say next to impossible at a resonable R&D cost. Wind and hail, tornados, "Acts of God" very complex! I'll probably have to look to some government and universities labs for that, including internal loads up-lift pressures. We are trying to measure dynamic loads now, not easy!

Looking back at John Siegenthaler white paper there is no way air can compare to water in heat capacity,

 

 Put those values for water in the formula for air noted:

Heat Output = (Temperature Rise)(Airflow)(air density)(specific heat of air)...you can play with "temp and airflow" all day and never get there.

There are low cost site built solutions using solar thermal water and we don’t have to spend a lot of time building or mounting bulky air panels to the roof or exterior walls that look nasty! They are running PEX lines under metal roofs for solar heat and night time sky radiation (NSR) for cooling in summer. Just the cost of PEX and some water pumps on a timer. If you are loading and unloading mass (roof to floor/walls), again, water is much more effective than air. With the combination of water and solid mass getting to net-zero heat/cooling loads requiring little to no mechanicals is possible since we are not relying on sunny days entirely. We are integrating mass and water phase changes, air doesn’t stand a chance not to mention radiant mass is more comfortable than air blowing around, less cold spots, better distribution, nice warm floor in winter to tippie toe on.

The bang for the buck is smaller for cold and cloudy climates, granted, but it is even smaller for air. 3500 times worse and more loss, sensitvity of moving or phase changing mass heat to air speeds rations as losses, etc...

Way I see it anyway feel free to correct me....or show me how air is more effective than water?

 

 

 

Again TLP, you choose to ignore or are incapable of comprehending the info. You also continue to struggle to stay on topic. Gary Reysa and the capable/competent contributors of Build it Solar have done an outstanding job testing the two most popular types of SAH designs…which was the topic raised by Eric, an outstanding contributor to this forum.

Anyone who has taken a fifth grade science course knows that the specific heat of water is significantly greater than that of air, making water a significantly better “heat conveyor” than air. This is why we prefer small PEX tube over large ducts for conveying heat…and then place the PEX in the floor to directly generate convective/radiant heat into the living space. However, because the specific heat of water is significantly greater than that of air, it also takes significantly more time (or more BTU/hour of heat) to raise the temp of water. So if you are wanting to heat your living space with forced hot air and are limited by solar time (and solar BTUs/hour) to heat the medium, heating air using a SAH makes good sense. If you are wanting to heat your living space with convective/radiant heat and are limited by solar time (and solar BTUs/hour) to heat the medium, you integrate HR floor heating and passive solar heating technologies. Perhaps take a close look at our logo sometime. Again, the topic under discussion is SAH (Solar Air Heater) designs.

Eric, how does your SAH design compare/differ from the DIY designs we have on Build it Solar?

Hey Sali, can you help me understand and show me a build you did and instrumented the results? I looked on your website again and could not find one? There you go again, as usually, tell everyone they are 5th a grade scientist compared to Borst.....so far below you they could only work at Home Depot! I'm surprise the mods let you promote your company at the expense of others.

Here is the list you all are better than

1. Most members out here based on many post that state members are not capable of understanding your bull!
2. ORNL
3. John Siegenthaler

I contacted the last two they never heard of any "corrections" you claim to have made to them? Bottom line your pretty much a joke, I'm done here you can have the thread. Tired of you ridiculing all these builders, members, labs, and taking cheap shots to make yourself look superior. We men call that cheap lies when they are not out here to defend themselves.

Everyone, follow the labs, the experts such as John Siegenthaler, the builders that have builds on their site and especially the ones that consult on their builds that are close to your climate zone....you don't need an Engineering firm from across the country, the local ones are MUCH better!

You will find what I described in my last post from this builder, another one Sali ripped on this thread: http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/15/aft/82528/afv/topic/Default.aspx   DO NOT EVER TAKE ADVICE FROM A FIRM THAT HAS NO BUILDS LIKE THIS ON THEIR SITE PERIOD! PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING ON THIS BUILDERS SITE.

Sali, Please stop trolling me like you did on my Solar Paint thread above too. I think it be best if we stay away. I don't waste my time reading your post anywhere just on my threads and I knew you be all over this one with BS and  knew I end up calling you out on it. It is about time someone did. Now perhaps you know what you do to others and yes I can see you don't like it.

I should have added that having tantrums like a 2 year old doesn’t help your cause either. Your obfuscation of the facts and ridiculous acquisitions only further illustrate where the problem resides. So, it is not surprising to me that you can’t keep a job.

There are no moderators on this forum. We get to police ourselves here. I do wish that we had more police and that you could be banned from this forum as I believe that would be a preferable solution. Instead, you can just expect folks to continue to call you out on your BS, ignorance, and bad behavior.

Again, the topic now under discussion is SAH (Solar Air Heater) designs. Eric, how does your SAH design compare/differ from the DIY designs we have on Build it Solar?

All I got to say is I am very pleased that I found out "1000s" have showed up to the clean up effort in Pilger, NE.....I left a message with them stating I wanted to be a part of the rebuild brainstorming, and I also sent FEMA an email hoping I can meet them there and be a part of their effort. We are going to get this figured out so little kids don't have to die and all kinds of people critically injured. I'll be there Tuesday late and I am going far out of my way in my dooley truck anyone interested let me know I am especially interested in local Engineers or Scientist that understand the pressure loads on building's, also contractors with lots of building experience since I have a completely new design. I need REAL internal dynamic loads first though. Talked a little to TX tech U today ballistic dept just not getting what I need anywhere. No wonder we are so behind the rest of world since we have crap for brains engineers in this industry that have had plenty of time to figure out how to keep kids and peoples lives safe. These so called incompetent "licensed" engineers need to loose their licenses and stop the E&O insurance that covers their stupid asses! I do that everyday in aircraft and auto, design good structure. I QUIT my job to get the job done since the idiots can't, and NEVER send a woman to do a mans job that is what destroyed auto and soon aircraft in this country. Madam Sali you be fat bit** slapped from wall to wall on ANY job site with your better than tho attitude, go back to baking pies in the kitchen where you belong. I be glad to meet you there with the boys that get the REAL work done.

I could EASILY explain the DIY SAH design compared to best on the market, that take a person with a what did you say a "5th grade scientist" ? Eric yes please do compare so moron can understand test results. Not a prob coming up with improvements to the best on the market either. Now you think you are boss of this threads topic go create your own, you don't decide the topic and quit trying to get Eric and people as Friends, you got no friends or backing out here nor should you need it if you know WTF you are talking about, it's not about numbers, da! You already tried that with ICFhybrid and I proved you both wrong with RUMFORD facts you ignored. Yes thats right and respond to those facts per the builder blower door test and manufactures air data but you will not we will have more of your crap to read instead! Or tell me once again how "planes" had ANYTHING to do with the solar paint thread you posted on since it had NOTHING to do with ground planes!! The reflectors I posted on the thread of the builder you said did not know what they are doing with proven build data, the surfaces were aircraft bull nose steel structure you have no idea about any of that can even begin to understand anything but ground planes that do not apply here. This builder, no degree, way smarter than you! Why because guess what builders are smart since they actually build chit! and don't sit on some dumb ass forum trying to act like they do.

Oh and not sure if you were threatening me but we are registered with the state of KS attorney general legally to design and build. We and our attorney all know each other so no threat there. As I said what a joke you are. Scratching for anything you can find from website request to threats bring it no problem, anything that distracts from the facts that prove Borst Engineering wrong! Perhaps we will honor our obligation to report design threats and so called Engineers that I can prove should not be licensed. Make sure you have your attorney review the contracts from firms like this you should sign no liability waiver for services rendered from "national BS"....they and their calculators have no clue what is going on in your climate zone and site.

they actually build chit! and don't sit on some dumb ass forum...

Um, participation here is voluntary on your part and at the largesse of the forum's owners. You can discuss like an adult, but personal attacks are out of the norm.

I went the easy route and bought it. I have a 2 panel unit- like this. http://www.yoursolarhome.com/solarsheat-products/solarsheat-1500gs-2pak-pv

It is installed flush with the outsulation, and is proud of the siding about 1” In my case the air intake is in the basement. I originally wanted to distribute the heat to the basement, but in the end I kept the air exhaust into the master bedroom. The second pic is the exhaust built into a closet The small solar panel on the wall the is the pv for the fan for the air heater. The location was a compromise because of the window layout The upper solar panel is for DHW. That one is pv powered also, but the small pv panel was not mounted yet in this picture. I have measured the output several times, generally in full sun, the fan outputs around 90 cfm with  a temp rise of ~ 70 degrees

On a practical level, if I close the bedroom door the room overheats on sunny days all winter long. With the bedroom door open, the whole house temp typically increases 2-4 deg from the time I leave in the morning until I get back in the evening. The windows in the picture are high solar gain double panes, the other 3 sides have low solar gain triples.

Thanks Eric. That’s a nice SAH and installation execution. I like your taste is size/style of home too. It sounds like it is performing quite well. Did you take any measurements like the Build it Solar folks to ascertain the actual BTUs/hour and efficiency of this commercial SAH unit? Any issues with this installation such as cold air venting when the sun isn’t shining, etc?

Eric, great build info thanks!…what type of walls and roof? Are you utilizing mass effect from solar passive? Did you do a blower door test? How many square feet? You are getting 70F out the exhaust on sunny days, are there many in your winter climate and what are you getting on cloudy days? 90 CFM in a bedroom might be hard to sleep next to for some upon resale. I don’t know if you keep up the studies on EMF radiation. Why not design a plenum with branches for whole house zone distribution like 1500GS data sheet or the installation manual shows? Pulling cold winter air from the basement, you would have been better off from a hot stack ceiling like they show? $3,000 for 1500 sq-ft is getting up there, they claim 20,400 BTU/full sun day per data sheet. What are you doing for cooling?

Another question for you Eric, what is the output of the DHW panel and what manufactures system is installed? How many occupants? Are you pre-heating the DHW w/a GSHP or hot water drainage, etc? How is it working based on supply and demand?

You GOD DAM IDIOTS FEMA...all I got to say!

Thank you for your inquiry to the FEMA Safe Room Helpline regarding whole-house tornado resistant design. The criteria for a safe room are provided in FEMA P-361, Design and Construction Guidance for Community Safe Rooms (FEMA, 2008). Prescriptive solutions for safe rooms are provided in FEMA P-320, Taking Shelter from the Storm: Building a Safe Room for Your Home or Small Business (FEMA, 2008). FEMA’s safe room guidance also references certain criteria in ICC 500, Standard for the Design and Construction. Links to download the current edition of these publications are provided at the end of this response.

Chapter 3 of FEMA P-361 presents the design criteria for FEMA tornado and hurricane safe rooms. Appendix E presents wall sections that passed previous missile impact tests. As noted in Table 3-6, low-sloped roof sections (30 degrees or less) of residential safe rooms must resist impact from a 15 pound 2X4 “missile” traveling at 67 mph instead of 100 mph as required for walls and steeper roof sections. While reinforced concrete monolithic walls and roof may provide adequate resistance to extreme wind pressures and missile impact, opening protection remains the most difficult (and expensive) design and construction challenge for safe rooms, and renders most whole-house safe room options impractical.

FEMA P-320, FEMA P-361 and ICC 500 are currently undergoing updates and should be released in late 2014 (ICC 500) or early 2015 (FEMA P-361 and FEMA P-320). To find out when the updated FEMA P-320 and P-361 are released, please sign up for FEMA email updates through GovDelivery at:
https://public.govdelivery.com/accounts/USDHSFEMA/subscriber/new.

Please note that State and local jurisdictions may have requirements beyond FEMA’s guidance and recommendations. As with all design and construction matters, please work with your local building department and all other authorities having jurisdiction to ensure that ALL State and local requirements are being met, even when using FEMA publication and guidance recommendations.

A free copy of FEMA P-320, including design drawings, can be downloaded or ordered here:
http://www.fema.gov/safe-room-resources/fema-p-320-taking-shelter-storm-building-safe-room-your-home-or-small-business

A free copy of FEMA P-361 can be downloaded or ordered here:
http://www.fema.gov/safe-room-resources/fema-p-361-design-and-construction-guidance-community-safe-rooms

ICC 500 can be purchased and subsequently downloaded or printed from:
http://shop.iccsafe.org/icc-500-2008-icc-nssa-standard-for-the-design-and-construction-of-storm-shelters-2.html

Free hard copies of FEMA Building Science’s current publications may also be ordered by calling the FEMA Publication Warehouse at 1-800-480-2520, Monday through Friday between 8:00 AM and 5:00 PM (EST), by fax or by emailing your request.  Please provide the title, publication number, and quantity of each publication, along with your name, address, zip code, and daytime telephone number.

If you have additional questions pertaining to our safe room guidance publications, please do not hesitate to contact the Safe Room Helpline.



Thank you,

They smoke weed all day collecting tax government dollars. Pricks!! there are MANY whole house designs doing well they fail to mention (ICFs in Moore, OK 2013, utube hurricane alley) to get the word out to the building community, or how to stop the ballistic debri(EG: 2x4s @ 67-100 mph) flying around. Texas tech test lab worthless unless you want detailed wall data, not roof and whole house.

I know I am hi-jacking my own thread stuff has me thinking since i am heading to NE, KS, OK, AR for meetings on the subject. With people completely in the dark, the green HVAC effort will be secondary to to saving of lives and keeping ppl from getting severely injured from mainstream wood stick structure. How they expect different results from the same wood stick methods is beyond insanity after two years in the making, 2011/2013, Moore, OK.