good analogy!

Wow, 4000 square feet is a pretty big house design for a Dutch person! Are you planning a bed & breakfast?

That's what I've been trying to point out about our house. There's almost no difference at all from one end of the house to the other. If you want to keep rooms closed off, you can always put in wall registers to help circulate the air. They also make registers intended to mounted in the bottom of a door. If you had a vent over the door, and one in the door, you should get pretty good circulation. You could even put in a small circulation fan if needed. I know you want doors closed for privacy; we do too, but not all the time. If you keep a guest room door open except when in use, it will stay pretty comfortable once the door is shut, assuming a good or very good building envelope.

Here's a floorplan of our house. At location 'A' is the 9K head for the master suite, and at 'B' is the 12K head in the 'main' part of the house. The house is 1400 sq ft (outside dimensions), ceilings are 9' 4". I ran the numbers, and our cooling load is about 9K; heating load is 12K at 99% temp of 21 F. Even at 0, the heating load is only 18K. Zero is very rare here, and it only lasts for a few hours, so we'll be fine with a total of 21K BTU. You'll see that there is only one bedroom. We are set up to add two bedrooms in the basement, should the need ever arise. Being partially underground, a small mini would handle the basement easily. We also have a large great room in our barn which we will eventually finish and put in a wood stove. That will be our 'guest house', and last refuge during an extended power outage. We have a perpetual supply of firewood!

[URL=http://s84.photobucket.com/user/flgargoyle/media/mini.jpg.html][/URL]

Eric,

I understand your analogy. I also agree with it to a certain extend. It's 100% true for a house with a zero BTU load. Obviously I try to get as close as possible to zero, but that won't happen. Temp near the walls/windows will always be lower as as the temp flowing out of the heater. But I understand what you are saying. The heat will (eventually) reach every room in my house and then temps will be fairly equal throughout the house. How equal obviously depends on the quality of insulation and how often I open an (outside) door in a certain room.

Temps will even out. That's just elementary physics. But it's also true it takes time for the heat to travel from spot A to spot B. Barriers like inside walls, doors and furniture influence that speed. That speed obviously also depends on the temp difference which itself depends on heat loss. While I think what I wrote is true I fully have to admit I have no solid numbers on for example how fast the heat migrates from room A to B. It's all just a feeling of experience. And experience *not* based on a very good insulated house.

I'm not ging to use drywall interior walls. It will be Durox (http://www.ozonelouise.com/kiln250602a.jpg) or preferably those white bricks. Unfortunately I don't know their name in English. White, bit larger than regular brick, heavy. http://s1.whbo.nl/uploads/order/119/d944a0eb6454b59e83508b8a92c8cf2b20c6d811.jpg

So I have to find a balance between lower energy costs of the single head units and higher up front cost.


BTW I do have a 10+ drawings of the floorplans I have in mind but I doubt posting them is useful because they change once in a while.

Posted By Jelly on 12 Aug 2014 05:28 PM
Wow, 4000 square feet is a pretty big house design for a Dutch person! Are you planning a bed & breakfast?

It likely will look more like a garbage dump :-) That 4000 is not set in stone. It's the total size of all floors including basement IF I would build more than one floor. Yeah It's big. Perhaps I'm infected by the think big American mindset. Add to that a bit of good old American hoarding and 4000sqft is small :-) Lotsa houses in the neighborhood I stayed start at 4000.

PS Dana, which mini-split would you recomend for this mansion? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576260/Is-worlds-cramped-flat-Tokyo-hoarder-lives-tiny-5m-apartment-surrounded-junk-barely-move.html

jedebree,

Your layout is far different from my. Your drawing also looks far better than mine :-)
But none of that really matters. Cassette B can heat the whole north and west part of the house because it's all open. The dotted lines are open right? Or sliding doors?
Why do you have two units? Doesn't the heat/cool from unit B migrate throughout the house? Yes, Eric I've been reading :-)

All the above in a single .pdf: http://radical-reaction.com/Public/Layout.pdf





Sorry everything in metric units.
1m2=10.8ft2
1meter=3.3ft

Initial thoughts of your layout.
Houses are usually taxed based on # of bedrooms. Keep this in mind. Any room of a certain size with its own door is considered a bedroom. If you have your own septic system- as opposed to municipal sewer- than the size of the system is based on the # of bedrooms also. The additional cost can be significant.
First if you are going to have a lot of guests, and why else would you have 5 bedrooms, you may want your own bathroom attached to the master bedroom. Could you knock it down to 3 bedrooms and have bunkbeds or a loft in one bedroom?
You only have 1 shower which again seems odd with 5 bedrooms- none of them have a bathtub. This could make life difficult for guests with small children (grandkids?)
Interior bathrooms are not as nice as those with windows- even if the glass is obscured. One thing you can do is add tubular skylights to the bathroom to add natural light Maybe add them to the pantry also.
Don’t put skylights or tubular skylights in the bedrooms.
Hallways are inefficient use of space, but are necessary when you have lots of bedrooms.
As much as possible back up the bathrooms and kitchens to each other so the plumbing runs are shorter
Try not to put bedrooms on the east side of the house- so you don’t get early daylight streaming in the windows. I like the eating area on the east side. This of course is personal preference.

In the size range you are talking about, a scissor truss is going to be problematic, truss uplift will be a problem (length is too long). You may be looking at interior load bearing walls . You would likely end up with ceiling heights of 15 ft in the middle which is too high to be practically used(but may look nice).


Would longer and skinnier be ok on that plot of land?
Of course these are just my suggestions- feel free to ignore them, most people do

I don't really like a bathroom attached to bedroom. I call them bedrooms but likely some get another use. I didn't know about being taxed by the # of bedrooms. How often do they checkthe number of bedrooms? If just when building I just make afew real big ones and afterwards puut in a few extra walls.
I was told virtually no house in the USA that's not tiny has just one bath and half bath. Here it's very common. I find it a waste of space. Do they count as # of rooms?
I agree with you that interior bathrooms are not the best choice. It's just a drawback of that layout. I still haven't found a perfect one. That's why I have about 20.
Aren't tubular skylights an insulation horror? If only I could combine them with teh exhaust fan somehow.

Mixed feelings about the hallways. For me they have double functionality. Privacy because I don't like bedroom, toilet or show doors in my living room. It was also intented to create temperature zones. I know you wrote about that but the layouts are from long before we discussed that.
I think the postition (east/west) of the bedrooms is a bit of a trade-off. I like absolute pitch black in my bedroom. But teh evening sun heating up my bedroom isn''t good.

I kept it square because of the minimum amout of outside walls. That was way before I ever heard of green building. Recently I've read a book that takes square as starting form but then continues explaining that the south side is better at 1.2 or 1.3x the east west lenght of the walls.

The roof won't be a problem. I'm not yet sure what sort I will use. Could be one large pitched roof or several smaller ones. An extra load bearing wall will be no problem.
I've seen wood spanning more that the size of the house. (Barns and restaurant) Not exactly scissor trusses I think. But that was a very heavy construction. Something like 8x12" oak or pine* But that costs arm and a leg.

*=Not sure it's called pine. It's light color wood. But not the cheap type that looks like it. It's priced similar to oak,

"Of course these are just my suggestions- feel free to ignore them, most people do"
I'm free to do that but I won't :-)

Posted By NewHoosier on 12 Aug 2014 02:48 PM
That's the whole point Dana.

Many rooms don't have a fixed heating load. If a guest room is only occupied 1 month a year should it be part of the load calculation? Why heat a room if nobody will enter that room the next 2 months?
That was the whole point of my post. I don't really want 8 unit to use them all for heating. I only want them for flexibility. A 2 ton unit with 8 heads.
One of the (advertised) advantages of a cassette is that each room can have its own temperature. That sounded energy efficient to me. But basically the advise given is: Heat the living room and let the heat 'escape' to all other rooms. The result will be 'overheated' bedrooms.

Most bedrooms are 15m2/161sqft. Walls will be R30. Ceiling R40-50.

BTW I'm not really choosing/sizing a heating system right now. I'm exploring. Maybe mini-splits are not for me...

EDIT
I always assumed oversizing was only based on the outdoor unit.

NO rooms have a fixed heating load! They will always vary.

The calculated heating load for sizing the equipment is at the 99th percentile out door temperature bin, at a (code required, for calculation purposes) 68F/20C interior temperature.   Modulating systems like mini-splits work well over a wide range of load, but only if you don't oversize them for the peak loads.

Yes, a guest room only occupied 1 month a year is part of the load for equipment sizing purposes.  Even if you  are not actively heating that room, it is still partially heated by air convection and conducted heat from the rest of the house.  In a high-performance house the average temperature in those rooms will not vary by more than 2-3C from those rooms that are actively heated.

A quick & dirty not super-accurate heat load calculation on a 160' room with R30 walls, R50 ceiling and 20 square feet of U0.28 (R3.5 ish) window looks something like this:

Assume the 99th percentile temperature bin is +5F/-15C, and the interior design temp is 70F/21C. That's a design condition temperature difference of 65F.

The U-factor of an R30 wall (assuming it is continuous insulation, with no thermal bridging) is 1/R30= 0.033 BTU/hour per square foot per degree-F.

The U-factor of an R50 ceiling is 1/R50= 0.020 BTU/hour per square foot per degree-F.

Assuming it's a ~12' x 13' room with 9' tall ceilings, and the room is on the corner of the house, it has a gross exterior wall area of (12' + 13') x 9'= 225 square feet. Subtracting out the 20' of window area leaves 205 square feet.

That makes the wall losses:  225' x 65F x U0.033 = 483 BTU/hr.

The ceiling losses are:   160' x 65F x U0.020 = 208 BTU/hr

The window losses are: 20' x 65F x U0.28= 364 BTU/hr

Add it up and you get 1055 BTU/hr.

Subtract 250 BTU/hr for a sleeping adult human and you're at 805 BTU/hr.

Add a generous 25% over-estimated for air infiltration losses and you're back to 1000 BTU/hr

Why would you install a 9000 BTU/hr cassette that can deliver 11,000 BTU/hr at an outdoor temp of +5F for that room?

Even at minimum modulation it would be ridiculously oversized for the load 100% of the time, and would only cycle on/off at very low efficiency due to standby & start-up losses A 300 watt electric baseboard would cover the entire load, but a 9000 BTU/hr mini-duct cassette splitting it's output with ducts to 3-4 other rooms can work just fine, at much higher efficiency than the 300W baseboard  (and it can cool those rooms too.)

Posted By NewHoosier on 12 Aug 2014 11:54 PM

PS Dana, which mini-split would you recomend for this mansion? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576260/Is-worlds-cramped-flat-Tokyo-hoarder-lives-tiny-5m-apartment-surrounded-junk-barely-move.html

At Tokyo's temperate outside design temperatures, even with uninsulated walls and single-pane windows the heat load of  a 5M room is too low for a mini-split solution, though a point-terminal heat pump or window heat pump/air-conditioner might be needed to handle the cooling load.  In a well  insulated building the body heat of the occupants would be sufficient for heating the room- it's mostly an air-conditioning problem, but a small one.

In most places, it's not considered a 'bedroom' unless it has a closet, at least for realtors. I don't see many closets at all. Americans have a lot of stuff, thus a lot of closets. Here in SC, taxes are based on heated square feet more than anything else. Septic systems, on the other hand, are based on the number of bedrooms.

NewHoosier- Have you tried Google Sketch-Up? It's a free drawing program, and you can get pretty involved with it. That's what I use. It also does 3D if you have the patience.

Back to the collection of floor plans. The kitchen is very big, as is the living room. Depending upon the number of guests, a living room that's too big isn't cozy. Likewise, a kitchen that is too big requires roller skates to get around. Our kitchen is 3.81m X 4.42m, and it has two separate 'work triangles' to allow two cooks to work without paths crossing. Now, if you intend to have a big table or something, that's different.

Most people would have more bathrooms in a house that size. Our small house has two full baths and a powder room. We even have a full bath in our barn!

I could see clustering 3-4 bedrooms and using a ducted mini to serve them all as one zone, and then a big one to do the open part of the house. You won't have separate temperature control for each room, but who does? When I visited my brother in VT this summer, it was in the 90's, and they have NO A/C- NONE! I would have gladly taken whatever A/C they offered, if they had any. Guests at our house get whatever we keep our house at, unless they had very specific needs.

You haven't given us much information about who will be living there. A retired couple? Plus adult children? Frequent visitors? As has been said, that is a lot of house. I once read that you should allow about 500 sq ft (46.47 sg m) per person for efficient living. Our last house was 1500 sq ft, and there were three of us before our son moved out. It really was about right. Of course, you can do whatever you want, provided you can afford it. We built a large barn (8.5m X 14.6m), and about one third of it will be finished and insulated as a guest house and great room should we ever need a room that big. The rest of the year, it won't cost us much to maintain, and energy usage only comes into play when we actually use it. We felt that was more practical than adding and heating extra rooms in the main house. Here in SC, barns aren't taxed much, either.

You asked why we don't just have the one 12K unit. At our 99% design low of 21 F., the house needs just about 12K to stay warm. That doesn't leave any cushion for the rare cold snap. At 0 F., the heating requirement goes up to 18K. It has gotten down below zero here. The redundancy of two separate systems isn't a bad thing, either, if one of them breaks down right when we really need it. They were only $1600 each.

Designing a house is a series of compromises, involving art, aesthetics, flow, comfort, energy efficiency, and the land that it sits on, all usually tempered by a budget. Our budget is very small, as we are building out-of pocket, and we aren't wealthy people. It took me several years to hit upon a design that met enough of our conditions that we could still afford to build. To be honest, 'green' factors came into the equation pretty late in the game. So far, the house 'lives' great. Lots of light, good flow, and very small power bills. We like the look of it, simple as it is.

Hoosier,

Building efficiency and a green wallet is an extension of a holistic approach to building function and design. You cannot design a building and then install electromechanical systems and insulation to make it efficient. Likewise, an extremely energy efficient building may not be functional or efficient for the occupants use. I am new to this site so I just read through all six pages of this post and am trying to grasp what your objectives are.

I would recommend a book to you called The Timber-Frame Home: Design, Construction, Finishing by Tedd Benson (Mar 20, 1997) I know you are not building a Timberframe home but in this book he does a great job of walking you through the thought process of room layout, functionality, ambience, and efficiency. He provides methods for sizing living spaces and traffic flows and other tips that make a home not just efficient to heat and cool but also efficient to build and live in. It is a holistic design.

Think about things like the typical time you rise and go to bed. This simple process can determine the best location for your bedroom to maximize early morning sun or evening sun. Are you involved in a lot of outdoor activities or do you spend most of your time indoors? Are you involved in physical activity indoors cooking, cleaning, & doing crafts or do you spend the majority of your time in sedentary activities like reading and using a computer. How many people will live in the house and what activities do they enjoy? Do you like being in the presence of each other or do you each prefer some solitude.

Things like this although they may seem trivial have a huge impact on your quality of life, the spirit of the home and the amount of energy the occupants consume. It is a fools errand to draw a floorplan to fit in a square box and then try to make it efficient with electromechanical devices.

In addition to the holistic approach to the building, a holistic approach should be used for the exterior of the home and the location and landscape of the lot. From which direction does the wind predominately flow, are there any veiwsheds you wish to take advantage of or to avoid and sheild. Where will your water well be and where will the house be in relationship to it? Where will the septic system and drain field be and will it all fall within the local setback ordinances and distance limitations from each other? Where will the utility right of ways be? What type of landscaping will you have and what will the exposure/shading and water requirements be for it.

What are the local zoning ordinances and will your plans be accepted by the local building code compliance officer and will the neighborhood have an architectural review board? What are the wind and snow loads for the area?

All of these things can have bearing on how a house id designed, built, and how well it functions after it is built.

Let me give you an example. I am in the finishing stages with my current house. We are in Virginia (southern portion of Zone 4) It is a slab on grade 1 1/2 story ICF envelope with jumbo 8.25" SIP panel roof over heavy traditional timberframe trusses. The slab was poured over 20" of #67 gravel bed with 2" of foam insulation on top then vapor barrier and then 5" of concrete. The concrete contains 5- 300' loops of 1/2" PEX on 6" centers in living "zones" which can be adjusted and balanced individually. The footprint of the home is 25'W X 33' L outside dimension. The exterior walls are 10' high and the roof is a 12:12 pitch. The exterior walls are James Hardie Panel. There are no interior hallways. Pocket doors were used to maximize internal space. The first floor consists of master bedroom, walk-in closet/laundry, bath with individual shower and tub area and dual vanities. A kitchen with large island/bar which we eat at open to a living area for lounging and watching TV, playing games, etc. The kitchen /living area has open cathedral cieling with exposed truss/beams and rise 22' at the peak of the roof and 10' at the eave. Though it is a relatively small space, it feels large and is flooded by natural daylight. The first floor is completely self contained for handicap living and all doors and facilities are handicap accessible. A spiral staircase ascends to the second floor loft. The loft has a small reading area and library on the balcony and entry to my sons loft bedroom. Storage is located behind the loft kneewall. The traffic pattern of the first floor is a continous circuit from living rooom to bedroom to closet, bathroom and back out to kitchen living room. Getting ready for work in the morning is a progression from bed to bath to kitchen and out the door with no need to back track. Likewise in the evening it is reversed.

There is only one house entry/exit door and it is on the south side gable end. Entry is via a shed roof style porch. It allows passive winter solar gain while it provides shade in the summer. A large window is above the porch in the south gable with a generous roof overhang once again permitting light in the summer and solar gain in the winter. Windows are minimized on the north side. All windows are highly energy efficient models made of Cellular PVC frames and are casement style for a tight seal. The entire home is comfortably heated and cooled by a 12,000 BTU mini-split. We typically have more need for cooling than heating. Humidity control is a much bigger problem than heating or cooling. I am working on an HRV type system. Our largest energy consumption right now is DHW and electric oven. We like long showers and the wife likes to cook/bake

We have not yet fully utilized the radiant heat system. I ran it in experimental mode during January this past year and at that time it was very comfortable to maintain an indoor air temperature of 62-64 degrees F with a floor temperature around 78F and the mini-split ran only for humidity control. Outside temps at that period were in the 20-40F eventually it will be tied to a geothermal heat pump but everything comes with time.

The garage has been built at a 90 degree angle to the house and the roof faces south at a 10:12 pitch. This is for future PV install which will eventually be able to power us at net zero grid tie with approx a 8.5Kw array.

We spend a significant amount of time outdoors on the porch and in the yard as well as enjoying nature and the nearby lake. We have 10 acres. Enough room to grow vegetables in the garden and be self sustaining if need be. The lot is sloped to a creek separating us from the road. Daytime thermals sweep up the hill from the creek and lake giving us some breezes. It is quite windy in the winter/spring and I am considering a small 1000W wind turbine.

Our interior walls are sheetrock. There is a large amount of thermal mass in the walls, floor,and in the heavy wood beams. The spiral staircase is painted black and acts as a thermal storage/radiator in the winter absorbing heat through the gable window. My wife never complains about it being dark in the house now and she suffered from SAD in the previous house we lived in. Her health has improved a great deal. The walls do not feel hollow. They feel like stone and are very warm in the winter and cool in the summer. The summer air temp in the house is around 68F in the living area and 71F in the bedrooms. Warm air stratifies in the high ceiling and cool air stays near the floor in the living space enhanced by the concrete floors which I circulate the cold well water through in the summer to preheat before entering the DHW heater.

If need be, I could install a gassifying outdoor woodburner and heat everything at zero cost but the wood burner would cost me 20 years to pay off at my current electrical bill cost so no ROI. For the same money I could install the PV array. I have a 80mi. commute round trip to work. I am just outside the range of using a Leaf. Hopefully with some battery improvements over the next couple years the range will improve and my transportation costs will then drop dramatically. Green means something a little different to everyone. To some it is reducing energy expenditures, to others low impact on earth resources, to others it is clean air and water. To me it is about efficiency and conservation. Use as little as possible to sustain a comfortable and healthy life and give back where it is possible. Technology can be a double edge sword. Building a super-insulated airtight home might seem wonderful but you may also find yourself with your windows open in january because the wife is baking a cake or you just took a hot shower. Having company over can raise the indoor temps very quickly. Staying warm is much less a problem for us than staying cool.

From the information you have given and the discussion so far, I would say the two building methods most suited for you are ICF block or AAC block. Precast concrete or adobe would be closer to what you are used to but I don't see them as well suited to your new climate. Please investigate a DX geothermal heat pump unit as your primary heating and cooling source. It can be used to heat via radiant heat in floors the winter for maximum comfort and cool via fan coils piped to each room in the summer as well as provide the majority of your needed DHW. This can only be done well though if you design holistically. write down your ojectives, your needs and your wants. Organize them by how much time you spend each day on that particular activity. Create spaces which maximize this, then design a traffic flow to compliment them efficiently. Eliminate poorly utilized space and rooms or combine with over utilized space.

Hopefully you can get what I am driving at.

Feel free to PM me. I would also like to ask some questions of you about some technology in the NL called Dry2Cool made by Optimair. Having trouble getting anywhere with it as it is all in dutch and English translation is very limited. Maybe we can help each other.

1blueheron,
Thanks for the reply. I 100% agree with you the house also has to be liveble. I really try to think that way but frankly speaking it's my weak spot. I think in numbers like a computer. I may be able to design an energy efficient house but it will look like a barn. That's what troubles me most. I may need to hire an architect to make my contruction look like an inviting house instead of brick box that blends in perfectly at industrial area. Right now I'm trying to learn the basics of insulation because they apply to every house design. I've put your book on my Amazon wishlist and will likely get a copy.

PM sent.

jdebree,

Don't get too focussed on the sizes of my floorplan because I just 'randomly' drawn a bedroom in my CAD program and just started copying that room. Then I made a square out of the whole house and that extra space is the living room... So I could very well decide to make the bedrooms smaller. I can/will also reduce the numbers of bedrooms if I will get hammered by all sorts of taxes because of it. A I wrote before I did label them bedroom but in reality not all will be used as bedrooms. Maybe one will become a gym for example.
Besides all of that I find it quite important to figure out what the exact tax rules are. With closet you mean a fixed closet I assume? If so I'm in luck because I don't prefer fixed closets. What if I would leave out the dividing walls between 2 or even 3 bedrooms in the design phase and call it a pool/biljard room. After the buiding inspector left I put in the diving wall(s). Would that work?

The definition of a bedroom comes from the building code in the state or AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction)in the area you live in.

The sanitary code bases the size of the leach field and holding tank on the number of potential occupants, which is determined by the number of bedrooms. Where I live if a room has a door that opens onto a hallway or main area, an exterior window that meets egress requirements and is 70 ft^2 with no dimension smaller than 7 ft, it’s a bedroom.
If the area you live in has high taxes, it is worth a call or visit to the assessors office to determine what the criteria for generating that assessment, usually # of bedrooms affects the assessment. In my case the difference was ~1500$/ year in savings, from highest to lowest, based on the same exteror shell.

I have 2 bedrooms, one does not have a closet, but it is still a bedroom for tax and sanitary puropses. YOur milage may vary.
Cheers,
eric

Hoosier,

As in all things, there are pro's and cons to cheating the system. The taxes in most US locals are a function of the "fair market value" of the home based on current and past sales. Since homes with more bedrooms typically sell for more in the real estate market, the taxes are typically higher if you have more "bedrooms". Since more bedrooms mean that the house can accommodate more people, a private well and septic must be able to support the number of people you could potentially be housing, therefore the Health department and Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) will permit and size the septic system based on the number of bedrooms and occupants that the house can support. To them this makes sense but it is far from reality. Many homes in poor neighborhoods with small lots and aging septic systems have 4 or 5 persons sleeping in one bedroom and using one bath. Many newly built large 5 bedroom homes with huge drainfields are supporting only two retired people that are seldom home and seldom have guests. This is not a science. In reality it is not good for the environment or for people who wish to build new homes. Putting that aside, it largely depends on the building code compliance officer in your area how rooms are assessed. Be forewarned, there are a lot of other factors that go into tax assessment such as the style and type of exterior construction (wood, masonry, vinyl/aluminum siding) the type of roof, number of floors, crawlspace, basement or slab, attached or detached garage,# and size of outbuildings, lot size, road frontage, type of road surface, driveway type, means of heating/cooling, type/materials of floors, number of baths, etc. but most of it is based on comparable sales within a radius of the home. Sometimes assessments are not raised but the the rate at which you are taxed are based on the average inflation of home values over time. Example: My mother home in pennsylvania had not been assessed or valued in 25 years, the value was still listed as the market value in 1985. Her taxes however had steadily risen as they raised the "millage" every couple years.

If you never plan to sell a home, building it with fewer beds/ baths can lower your taxes and the size of the permitted septic system. You can then add these things in after the initial CO is issued and the inspector and assessor are gone. If however in the future you decide to sell the home and it is discovered that the home has more bedrooms/baths than it is permitted for, it can become a nightmare to sell. Worst case scenarios you might have to remove the beds/baths, upgrade the septic to accommodate changes made paying any or all neccessary fines and permitting fees and possibly back taxes, and if the system has failed due to overload and can not be remediated, the house could be condemned.

From a real estate appraisal perspective a bedroom must have a closet and two means of ingress/egress that meet fire code. This is the way in which a real estate agent will list a house in the multiple listings. This was once credible but now with the internet and for sale by owner listings becoming more common it is not as hard and fast.

I permitted my house for 5 bedrooms and septic and drainfield was sized accordingly. I only have one official bedroom as the house was built. Therefore my bases are covered if I wish to add on or expand.

My advice is to only build what you need now. Design with the ability to expand if needed. If you have occasional out of town guests, it is cheaper to put them up in a nice hotel for a few nights than it is to build, pay taxes, heat, cool, and maintain space that is used only for occasional visits. Other ideas are to make dual use space. For instance, a billiard room can also serve as a formal dining room by purchasing a convertable billiard table. A family room, den or library can serve as a bedroom by installing a sleeper sofa, a murphy bed or day bed. In this manner you can use a smaller footprint, be more efficient and still have comfortable accommodations for guests. In many cases it just requires creativity.

Insulation does not apply to all homes equally. For instance, a log home or solid wood home has virtually no insulation but actually performs quite well. Same goes for AAC homes. The insulation comes from the thermal mass of the structural materials themselves. R-values are highly overrated as a means of calculating performance. They were intended for rating Fiberglass batts. They work well for that in a laboratory environment but anyone who has ever looked at an infrared thermal image of a fiberglass batt insulated home quickly realizes the folly of that system.

I really don't look at r-values or evaluate materials based on r-value. I look more at thermal mass, conductivity, emissivity, permeability and longevity. These are the things that really matter and effect comfort and energy performance over the long term. A holistically designed home needs very little energy to live in comfortably not because it is super insulated or airtight, but rather because it functions well throughout the seasons and assists the occupants in there daily habits.

You are not entirely off base with many of your ideas like natural ventilation and cooling roofs, thermal mass in walls, etc. The only issue with them is you are trying to compare them in Indiana to where you are now and the situation is not entirely the same. They have to be tweaked and fine tuned.

Do you have land purchased or is this still in the dreaming process?

1blueheron,

You are very right about dual use of rooms.
Take my last floor plan as an example. The bottom right corner as a computer, study and relaxing room. Would that count as 3 bedrooms? (all have regular sized windows)
In the top left corner there is a storage/laundry room. If I put in a large window it will be counted as a bedroom and if I put in no or a very small, toilet style, window it isn't counted as bedroom.
Is that the correct interpretation?
If so I think I can turn things into my advantage without breaking any code or cheating.
The result will also be a small house which will please jdebree :-)

What's costs me more taxes? Attached of detached garage? Will likely be more like a workshop. No connecting door to the house.

Yeah, I know a log home performs quite well. I was in Kentucky (lovely state!) late spring this year. Warm outside. Very cool inside. It was a very old house build by the settlers/pioneers. I just chose to ask the questions the way I asked them to avoid giving a use list of possible parameters before I ask my question.

Dreaming in progress. But I might get my claws on as much land as I need. There is a retired farmer that still farms as hobby. That piece of hobby land is abou the size of teh country I live in :-)
Brings me to another question. Here is not permitted to build on farm land. Farmland cost a few dimes and building land up to $361 sqft. But for that price you have the guarantee you will have all utils and a decent road. Even if it means have to lay 5 miles on sewage, water, electricity etc to the border or your land.

Detached garage is usually less tax than attached.  Utility power for detached cost more though if separately metered. Make sure you plan for power to garage from house meter if detached.

Farm land here can be built on if it is not in a conservation easment or land trust.  May cost you a bit to get utilities run but is less likely you will have meddling neighbors or pesky architectural review boards zoning ordinances if you buy farmland to build on.  Trusts or easments are one way to lower taxes on large parcels of land that preclude sale for development.

Two means of egress are neccessary for any "room" to be legally defined a "bedroom"  This is for fire and rescue purpose. If window is used as egress it must be no less than a certain size and not higher than a certain height to allow a firefighter in gear to enter and exit.

My advice is to call the county in which the farmland is located and ask for a copy of their building regulations and tax rates or see if that have it published online.  Most counties here now have a GIS mapping system online and you can see the assessed land value, zoning, sale price etc. on it as it is public record.  Find out the typical well and septic characteristics for that area.  Rules regarding them are changing rapidly. 

Most counties have a building code and it is based on the International Residential Code (IRC)  This is prescriptive meaning if you stay within its guide you are cannot be prohibited from building.  If you wish to go outside the prescriptive code, they can prohibit you from building until you get an engineer to stamp and sign your plans.  An engineers stamp releases them from liability and places it on the engineer.  You must then build in strict compliance with the engineers plans.

You can purchase a copy of the IRC code book and it will help you in your planning.  It is likely that electrical, plumbing and heating/AC code is a bit different than what you are familiar with.  Plumbing codes are sometime IPC but also UPC is in effect some places.  Various localities sometime adopt special regulations due to local issues. Some inspectors have certain things they like and dislike.

Building with alternative materials or methods might be a hassle but typically they will work with you as long as you can provide documentation from the manufacturer and show a good understanding of the materials you have chosen enough to answer any questions they might have.


Bedroom doors must exit to a common hallway/corridor which leads to an  exterior exit door.  Bedrooms cannot exit to another room.  This can get a little confusing.  As an example, you could have a bedroom in the middle of the house with no window but two doors.  Each door would need to have a different fire escape route and not use a common hall.  If all bedrooms share a common hall, they must each have their own window.  Any exceptions to this have to be approved by code official.  Small windows or high windows are a sure way to make sure a room cannot be considered a bedroom.   In your example they would not be able to consider the  relaxing room and computer room as 3 bedrooms even if you had 3 beds in them although you would be in violation of code for improper sleeping area.  This is bogus as most people often fall asleep in a chair or on a couch just as well as in a bed but code is what it is.






 

 

Bedroom doors must exit to a common hallway/corridor which leads to an exterior exit door. Bedrooms cannot exit to another room

Is my hallway also a room because it's close by a door at the end?

In your example they would not be able to consider the relaxing room and computer room as 3 bedrooms even if you had 3 beds in them

Do you mean computer and study because the doors lead into the relaxing room?

Isn't jdebree's bedroom a code violation or no bedroom at all because the door leads into the master closet? Or is it ok because he has 2 windows?

Small windows or high windows are a sure way to make sure a room cannot be considered a bedroom.

Not saying your a wrong but in that case I could add 20 bedrooms that aren't considered bedrooms because I use high windows.

although you would be in violation of code for improper sleeping area.

My gues is that the insuarance company is going to make abig fuss out of it if something happens and they figure out someone slept in a bedroom with high windows.