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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 10 Nov 2012 06:44 AM |
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Lbear;
in spring of 06
the generatorcost $3,500.
the installation $800.
the burried propane tank, tankless HW about $1,300. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Eric Anderson
Basic Member
Posts:441
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| 10 Nov 2012 09:14 AM |
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There are many ways to deal with outages. In my lifetime I have lost power for more than 5 days at least 7 times. In 1978 as a child we were out of power for 15 days because of a blizzard/ ice storm.
Where I live, you need heat, a way to cook, get fresh water, keep food from spoiling(maybe), and waste elimination.
Option 1 is a generator with enough of a permanent fuel supply to last a few weeks. Likely this will be diesel or propane. My parents go this route: 500 gal propane tank, 20 kwh stand by generator. They get ~ 200 hours of backup without a resupply.
I use a combined approach. A woodstove with enough wood to heat the house for the winter. I have a 500 gal propane tank and a gas kitchen stove that can be manually lit. I keep several gallons of bottled water for drinking, and 15 gallons in jugs in the basement to flush to toilet. Gets me about 10 flushes. There is a dug well about 900 feet from my house that I can use to refill the jugs and get fresh water if needed or I want a sponge bath. I can easily run a couple of weeks without utility’s or resupply. Don’t forget about an emergency stash of dog/ cat food. I have a portable gas generator, but have no illusions about getting more gas if it is a bad natural disaster, and don’t rely on that.
You probably also want to figure out what resources the community has for emergency situations. Most times they already have plans in place. Many communities have CERT teams (Civilian Emergency Response Teams). The bottom line is that you need to plan to be self-sufficient for at least 5 days if it is a bad natural disaster. |
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 10 Nov 2012 11:04 AM |
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The country life is not safer if you have well water or drive to work. I'm guessing the folks hoofing it across LBear's bridge are happier than the folks sitting in gas lines. Worse, power companies tackle problems by density, meaning the lines in the country with 4 customers on them are dead last on the priority list.
Some perspective helps. The duration of outages has two components: the number of customers affected and access. Unless you live in blizzard country or hurricane country, you may be uncomfortable for a day or two and suffer some economic loss, but you are unlikely to be at any risk. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 10 Nov 2012 05:53 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 10 Nov 2012 11:04 AM
The country life is not safer if you have well water or drive to work.
Rural areas that have well water are much safer & better off then relying on city water, that is an undeniable fact. Go and read survival books and not one of them will recommend being tied into a city water infrastructure system during a disaster event. The New Jersey residents are still without water, they have to haul in water to pour into their toilet bowls so that they can flush their waste. We are going on 2 weeks and they still do not have water and electricity. In a rural area with a well I can pump my own well water because it's my water and my property. I don't have to rely on a failed government infrastructure system to provide me life essentials in times of disaster because as we have seen with Sandy, Katrina, Andrew, etc, the systems fail and fail miserably. As far as driving to work goes, they couldn't get them gasoline for the gas stations and the roads were impassible and the mass transit system was down for days. People were standing in line for 10+ hours to get a gallon of gas. |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 10 Nov 2012 07:05 PM |
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Umm. Without electricity my well is good for 20 Gallons. Dunno how you get water to the surface. If you can walk or bike to work you'll get a paycheck and a workout. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 10 Nov 2012 11:47 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 10 Nov 2012 07:05 PM
Umm. Without electricity my well is good for 20 Gallons. Dunno how you get water to the surface.
Quite easy. A galvanized well bucket, also known as an "Amish well bucket" for $70 : Lehman'sA hand pump will also work on shallow wells. Ideally you want a generator backup on your home/well. While backup diesel generators are not feasible in the city due to space, noise and location, they are very popular in the country. A diesel generator can run indefinitely, 24 hours, 7 days a week as long as the proper oil level is maintained and you have the fuel. You can also run a diesel generator on almost any type of refined bio Diesel fuel. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 11 Nov 2012 06:44 AM |
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Posted By toddm on 10 Nov 2012 07:05 PM
Umm. Without electricity my well is good for 20 Gallons. Dunno how you get water to the surface. If you can walk or bike to work you'll get a paycheck and a workout.
V Pump |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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jdebree
Basic Member
Posts:497
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| 11 Nov 2012 07:18 AM |
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I have a small pond on my property. Not pretty, but it could be made potable from a survival standpoint. I have an endless supply of firewood, and always keep a good supply of non-perishable food in store. I wouldn't have to drive anywhere for a month or better, if push came to shove. In FL, I have no firewood, but have a similar water source, and a good food supply. The problem is all of the other people in close proximity who have nothing. At least in a rural area, I'd have less competition. |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 11 Nov 2012 08:54 AM |
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Thanks for the suggestions. My well is 600 feet deep. |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 11 Nov 2012 09:38 AM |
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The good news on using Lbear's Amish well bucket: the lights likely will come back on so you can keep pulling pipe at night.
I would not be so blase in Fla or on the Jersey shore, but Arizona? Seriously, Lbear, do you watch "Revolution" in your camo jammies? |
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arkie6
Veteran Member
Posts:1453
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| 11 Nov 2012 10:19 AM |
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Posted By Lbear on 10 Nov 2012 11:47 PM
Posted By toddm on 10 Nov 2012 07:05 PM
Umm. Without electricity my well is good for 20 Gallons. Dunno how you get water to the surface.
Quite easy. A galvanized well bucket, also known as an "Amish well bucket" for $70 : Lehman's
You would have to pull your pump (assuming a submersible pump) or suction piping (assuming shallow well pump) to be able to use that. Pulling a submersible pump with hundreds of feet of pipe and wiring attached to it out of a well is not an easy one-man task. |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 11 Nov 2012 04:01 PM |
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In Pa, wells deeper than 500 feet must use steel pipe, usually in 20 foot threaded joints. Definitely NOT a one-man job. (You are drilling in sold rock in much of Appalachia so the depth is determined by where you hit fissures that let water in.) |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 11 Nov 2012 04:35 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 11 Nov 2012 09:38 AM
The good news on using Lbear's Amish well bucket: the lights likely will come back on so you can keep pulling pipe at night.
I would not be so blase in Fla or on the Jersey shore, but Arizona? Seriously, Lbear, do you watch "Revolution" in your camo jammies?
There have been instances where AZ had power outages for days due to summer and winter storms. Power outages don't just happen only during hurricanes, they occur during other inland based weather events. Ideally a diesel generator would be the way to go if the power went out. A 600' well is deeper then in most areas of AZ. In my area wells range around 100'-400' deep. Anything over 500' becomes VERY costly to drill. I talked to one guy who had to drill around 800' and it cost him $20k. I am in the 300' range with 25 GPM. |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 11 Nov 2012 07:13 PM |
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A day or two without power is no biggie, certainly not worth the expense and upkeep of a diesel generator. We are surrounded by trees. So far in my three years here -- yep, still building --two hurricanes, three noreasters and an earthquake. Two outages: one a few hours, one a few minutes. The risk is highly local -- which utility, how old the infrastructure. You might want some experience before laying out big bucks.
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 11 Nov 2012 10:58 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 11 Nov 2012 07:13 PM
A day or two without power is no biggie, certainly not worth the expense and upkeep of a diesel generator. We are surrounded by trees. So far in my three years here -- yep, still building --two hurricanes, three noreasters and an earthquake. Two outages: one a few hours, one a few minutes. The risk is highly local -- which utility, how old the infrastructure. You might want some experience before laying out big bucks.
That is quite subjective. When it's 20F outside and you are without electricity for numerous days, how is that not a "biggie"? How about when you are older or you have medical issues? Sitting inside a frigid home and having your pipes freeze and break will cost you 5 times more $$ then the generator would have. There really is no expensive upkeep on a diesel generator. The fuel is more stable (can last 2 years) than gasoline and if the thing is not running, there is not much upkeep to do on it. That is why diesel generators are the popular choice over gasoline generators. They are more efficient, more reliable and require less maintenance. To each his own but I guarantee you that when the power goes out for a couple of days most people will wish they had spent the $2k on a generator. National disasters aside, even the US Government stated that domestic terrorists can & will go after our power grids. They took notice of what chaos ensues after a storm knocked out power for 2+ weeks and they still can't get the power turned on. Having your own water supply and septic/sewer is a huge advantage. Being on a city system you can end up like the people in NJ who still don't have running water or an operating sewer system. |
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Rosalinda
Basic Member
Posts:353
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| 11 Nov 2012 11:56 PM |
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I have been thinking about backup systems for a while, since I now have radiant heat that needs electric to circulate the water, and a hot water heater that is fueled by propane, but requires electric to run. In addition, keeping refrigerators and freezers going would be important, and a generator would be the only answer for that.
For heat, I guess in an emergency I could always haul a wood stove out of a storage building and put a chimney out of a window in the new house. I have lots of wood on my farm.
For a long term outage, I have a hand pump on my well, so if the electric is out I can still get potable water, once my stored water in the house is depleted - I always have gallon jugs filled for watering plants etc.
Kerosene lamps, oil lamps and candles would serve for light.
Having ones own water and septic system is definitely an advantage in a catastrophic situation. |
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| Sum total of my experience - Designed, GCed and built my own home, hybrid - stick built & modular on FPSF. 2798 ft2 2 story, propane fired condensing HWH DIY designed and installed radiant heat in GF. $71.20/ft2 completely furnished and finished, 5Star plus eStar rated and NAHB Gold certified |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 12 Nov 2012 08:17 AM |
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I guess I am not the best judge of blackout tolerance. My high mass passive solar house has never been colder than 50 degrees without hvac. And I've drunk water from some pretty nasty sources using one of these http://www.rei.com/product/695265/msr-miniworks-ex-water-filter (For super turbid water, leave it in a bucket over night to settle before filtering.)
But on that diesel generator: firing it up and running it for an hour once each month is the best way to make sure it starts when you need it. And while diesel fuel is more stable than gas, it can grow bacteria algae and fungi to point of clogging filters. Also watch for water contamination. Most sailors will tell you that keeping the tank full won't stop condensation. I use a biocide, a separator and multiple filters. The stuff you use least tends to be the biggest PITA. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 12 Nov 2012 04:29 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 12 Nov 2012 08:17 AM
I guess I am not the best judge of blackout tolerance. My high mass passive solar house has never been colder than 50 degrees without hvac. And I've drunk water from some pretty nasty sources using one of these http://www.rei.com/product/695265/msr-miniworks-ex-water-filter (For super turbid water, leave it in a bucket over night to settle before filtering.)
But on that diesel generator: firing it up and running it for an hour once each month is the best way to make sure it starts when you need it. And while diesel fuel is more stable than gas, it can grow bacteria algae and fungi to point of clogging filters. Also watch for water contamination. Most sailors will tell you that keeping the tank full won't stop condensation. I use a biocide, a separator and multiple filters. The stuff you use least tends to be the biggest PITA.
toddm...........this filter works without drops Sawyer Filters |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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