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skia_d
 New Member
 Posts:17
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| 13 Apr 2011 11:36 AM |
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Thanks, kba, I'd call that pretty straight talk. It seems the "take home" for me from this discussion is that I should assume (as a responsible designer) that ICF is no more resistant to termites than wood frame, and whatever strategies and techniques used for wood frame should be applied in ICF construction as well. As I indicated in my original post, the termite issue is the only thing which keeps me from be a full-fledged advocate of ICF. I guess I'm still in that position. It doesn't stop me from designing for it, just gives me pause and makes me want to make sure that termite treatment is still part of the construction package. Since nobody answered your two questions I'll take a stab: While I have no direct experience with cutting away foam in a crawl space, I see no reason not to. You don't affect structural integrity, and it seems there'd be minimal loss in overall thermal performance. As to your other question, my guess would be that it would be no different than having a framed structure on a monolithic slab, i.e. you'd need an exterminator to do some ground rodding. |
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icfblocks
 Basic Member
 Posts:202
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| 13 Apr 2011 02:23 PM |
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As a builder using ICF in the South I am aware of termites. Always pre-treat the soil for termites. Always put in an inspection strip and/or use a termite shield. Borate does not kill termites, it only wears out there mandibles and they can't boar in wood. It is always a recommendation to apply PoleyGuard or any other approved waterproofing below grade. With 20 years building with ICF here in the south. I, personally have never seen termites in a ICF structure even without Borate, PoleyGuard or Termite Shield installed. Still doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. |
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| Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com |
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icfblocks
 Basic Member
 Posts:202
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| 13 Apr 2011 02:24 PM |
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Posted By icfblocks on 13 Apr 2011 02:23 PM
As a builder using ICF in the South I am aware of termites. Always pre-treat the soil for termites. Always put in an inspection strip and/or use a termite shield. Borate does not kill termites, it only wears out there mandibles and they can't boar in wood. It is always a recommendation to apply PoleyGuard or any other approved waterproofing below grade. With 20 years building with ICF here in the south. I, personally have never seen termites in a ICF structure even without Borate, PoleyGuard or Termite Shield installed. Still doesn't mean it can't or won't happen.
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| Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com |
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Dana1
 Senior Member
 Posts:6991
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| 13 Apr 2011 03:26 PM |
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Borate kills termites, but neither from direct toxicity to the termite, nor from the alleged mandible wear. (Where did that come from?) The borates kill the internal sybiotic gut-flora they need to break down cellulose into sugars that the host insect can use- they end up dying of malnutrition rather than a toxic reaction. The process is similar in ants & wasps- it's the toxicity of borates to the gut bacteria necessary to keep them going, not the host directly. |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 13 Apr 2011 04:23 PM |
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Dana1,
I have heard that since borate does not work like an insecticide, the termites can not build up a resistance to it like they have with some chemicals. Do you think this is a true statement? |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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Dana1
 Senior Member
 Posts:6991
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| 13 Apr 2011 05:13 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 13 Apr 2011 04:23 PM
Dana1,
I have heard that since borate does not work like an insecticide, the termites can not build up a resistance to it like they have with some chemicals. Do you think this is a true statement?
Since it doesn't kill the termite directly, but rather it's gut-protozoans (not really bacteria- they're bigger than bacteria), it's a matter of how quickly those bug-gut-bugs might evolve resistant strains. It's not clear to me what biological processes boron or borates might be interfering with that kills the bacteria, but it's a pretty reactive element (in the same column as aluminum and gallium on the periodic table but a lighter, and of higher reactivity.) Borates have been effective against them for some time, so I suppose development of resistant strains may be a long time coming (or never.) Apparently most insects that injest wood fiber need these protozoans to survive the experience, even if the wood isn't used as food for the host. Some insects that injest wood need the wood to be broken down by fungi first, so keeping the wood dry is a first line preventative against insect damage (necessary, but not sufficient), but borates are toxic to many fungi as well. Various copper compounds will kill termites too (directly from contact, or indirectly by killing the gut flora), and the use of copper foils or sheet metal in sill gaskets and copper Z-flashing at the foundation/siding interface seem to "work-mostly" for keeping termites from going higher. This document seems to be a near-encyclopedic chapter on the subject of dealing with wood-destroying insects. |
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wes
 Advanced Member
 Posts:810
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| 13 Apr 2011 05:21 PM |
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Alton, I first learned about borates from the log home industry. I believe that is their opiniion as well. It doesn't kill the insects, it causes them to starve to death. So there should be no 'resistance' built up. By the way, borates are supposedly totally non-toxic to mammals. Which is a good thing, I think. It is also an excellent way to control mold and mildew. I often spray a borate solution on exposed framing at dry-in stage, before drywall is installed, to eliminate any potential fungal growth. |
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| Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected] |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 13 Apr 2011 05:29 PM |
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Thanks Dana1 and Wes.
The massive destruction of property by termites encouraged me years ago to search for building systems that not only save energy but also defeat termites. I have read that termites do more property damage to buildings in the US than fires.
Does anyone know how thick or dense concrete coverings have to be to deter termites and pass the code. For instance, the SABS system consists of thick EPS and very thin (1/4") glass fiber reinforced concrete that extends to the footer? Along that same line of thinking will traditional stucco down to the footer over foam board protect the home from termites? |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 13 Apr 2011 09:21 PM |
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The study I read found that borate did not work. I'd be too worried about a crack letting termites in with concrete to the footer.
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EDNC
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 23 Apr 2011 07:25 PM |
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I have seen termite channels in ICF blocks but not significant amounts. Logix sells ICF block that is treated for termites. That is very effective for a preventative solution. Thanks |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 24 Apr 2011 10:08 AM |
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The study I read found that borate did not work. Do you have a reference to that handy, so we could see it, too? Thanx! |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 24 Apr 2011 10:32 AM |
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http://www.croplifefoundation.org/upload/su%202003%20termites.pdf http://www.ornl.gov/sci/buildings/2010/Session%20PDFs/153_New.pdf
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 24 Apr 2011 04:42 PM |
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Jonr,
But for the kindness of strangers I would not have read these two studies. Boy, am I glad that I did. Although borate treated EPS may not be the answer to defeat termites, I am happy that someone conducted extensive experiments to determine what would work. Now instead of saying "borates" can we all say "Deltamethrin"? I think it is easier to say BLUEGUARD™.
Jonr, I really do appreciate you posting the two links. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 24 Apr 2011 06:58 PM |
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You are welcome - it did take some searching to find them again. Are they a scam by Dow - I have no idea. |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 25 Apr 2011 09:40 AM |
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Jonr,
I believe Deltmethrin is effective against termites. Here is a link to an article written for Blueprints Services "Continuing Education for Code Officials" stating
"Insect Control Crawl spaces can be prime areas of attack by pests. And infestation by insects such as termites can result in expensive, sometimes permanent, damage to a home.
In areas of the United States identified in 2006 IRC Figure R301.2(6) as “very heavy” probability for termite infestation, Section R320.5 limits the use of foam plastic in contact with the ground on foundations. The concern is that termites can burrow into the foam and tunnel undetected up through the foam into the building. STYROFOAM™ BLUEGUARD™ insulation is a termite-resistant insulation that contains deltamethrin insecticide to protect the foam from termites and other wood-destroying insects. It is specifically designed to keep termites out of the foam and qualifies as an “approved method of protecting the foam plastic” per 2006 IRC Section R320.5 Exception 2. It should be used in conjunction with a total insect management program available from a pest management professional.
STYROFOAM™ BLUEGUARD™ has been field tested and exceeds the performance requirements set forth by the U.S. EPA and the ICCES EG-239 Evaluation Guideline for Termite-Resistant Foam Plastic, which enables code approval for use in below-grade applications in very heavy termite infestation areas. The insecticide in STYROFOAM™ BLUEGUARD™ insulation is not a surface treatment. Similar in structure to naturally occurring chemical compounds, the deltamethrin insecticide is incorporated into the plastic of the foam matrix during the manufacturing process, providing integral and lasting protection of the foam. Deltamethrin insecticide is a U.S. EPA registered pesticide, and is effective for use against termites and other wood- destroying insects." |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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mhall
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 10 Jul 2011 10:24 PM |
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kba,
We are in the same situation. Our Reward Wall house was built in 2001, with untreated foam. There is waterproofing, but it is not certified for termites. Our basement is finished, so our whole house is on a slab - no crawlspace.
Have you found a preventative treatment for termites for your garage?
Thanks,
mhall |
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kba
 New Member
 Posts:9
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| 11 Jul 2011 03:07 PM |
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We had an exterminator come out and drill holes into the entire perimeter of the garage floor approximately 18 inches apart. Then he shot a chemical into each hole and plugged up the holes with Sakrete. The idea is that the termites have to return to the ground every now and then for water, and they'll ingest the poison. We've also taken the Sheetrock off of parts of the garage wall to shoot in more chemicals and also allow us to monitor termite activity in the foam. And we've repeated the termite treatment around the entire foundation of the house. So far, we've seen no bugs since the chemical treatment, but the exterminator said the real test will come next spring when they start swarming and mating again.
I imagine this will be more difficult for you in a basement situation if it's finished and you have tile or carpet. In the garage, we can live with the patched-up holes in the floor and exposed foam walls.
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mhall
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 11 Jul 2011 03:14 PM |
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This is very helpful information. Thank you so much for your reply.
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kba
 New Member
 Posts:9
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| 11 Jul 2011 04:04 PM |
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Where are you located, by the way?
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mhall
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 11 Jul 2011 04:12 PM |
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Western North Carolina, Asheville area. |
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