water penetration in rastra-type wall
Last Post 23 Mar 2011 01:54 PM by Mark Fleming. 37 Replies.
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icfcontractorUser is Offline
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18 Jan 2009 09:02 PM

Bruce is right in my opinion.  We live and build in the Pacific NW where it rains 9 months out of the year.  You have to remember Stucco is not water proof, water tight, nor water resistive.  That is why you need a drain plain behind it.  If you directly apply it to a pourus composite form you can expect water will eventually find its way through the wall.  Detailing should be very similar to CMUs for stucco.

 

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18 Jan 2009 09:34 PM
Does anyone know if the ICF coatings are waterproof, or shed water?


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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18 Jan 2009 10:22 PM

Most companies of acrylic coating will rate them as water resistive but not water proof.

 

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19 Jan 2009 07:01 AM
Is water resistive good enough? Does that include the popular ones? I would think so, it is not like the above garage will be submerged. Siding is not water-proof, siding sheds water.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
Bruce FreyUser is Offline
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19 Jan 2009 07:56 AM
For me it is less an issue of being "water proof" or "water resistive" than the details.  Arizona can use different details that Washington or Florida.

If you ONLY drainage plane is the exterior surface, it means that all of your flashing should take water to the exterior.  I think this is what happened to poor Daniela who started this thread.

With conventional ICF, the water will run down the face insulation or concrete, usually to the footing, and it is not a problem UNLESS the ICF wall is build on a slab.  Then, the water will likely find its way onto the slab because the joint at the bottom of the ICF wall is not waterproof.  If you have a multi story building, the windows and doors at the lower level are susceptable from leaks above them.

Despite the perception that traditional ICF does not need "another" drainage plane, my personal view is that it is prudent to have one in a wet environment.  I think composite ICF absolutely must have a drainage plane.

Bruce


Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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19 Jan 2009 01:17 PM

"Can anyone else weigh in on the application of stucco directly to Composite ICFs?"

I'm in the Pacific NW and have some experience with ICCF and stucco. As I've said in other posts, there's stucco and then there's stucco. Whether you need or want a waterproof moisture barrier depends on many things, like your roof overhangs, prevailing winds, grading, ERV, and your non-ICCF construction materials.

I'm building my own Rastra-type ICCF right now without an official "drain plane" in the wall. I'm in a temperate rain forest (50-80 inches a year) with saltwater frontage. What I'm doing works for me and I've seen variations of it work for others in the area.

Cement stucco cracks and leaks. Further, it is fairly impermeable such that once water gets behind it, it stays there. There are a couple of solutions. First, fibered stucco. This isn't a perfect solution, but it does greatly reduce cracking. Still, because of capillary action, it isn't waterproof. Second, three-coat stucco. You still have cracks, but they tend to run in different directions and three-coat greatly reduce the possibility of capillary action. Third, an elastomeric top coating. This is generally used with one coat stucco, but could be used with two- or three-coat stucco. You can put another layer on if you have leaking or want a different house color.  And, of course, you can do all three "solutions" together.

But the big problem with cement stucco is that once you get water inside, you have to deal with it. How you deal with it depends on what the water contacts. If the water contacts wood, the paper coating on drywall, or the backside of a painted surface, you have problems. The problems are generally dry-rot, mold, and staining. If it’s a building material that can be "composted," it’s too "green" to be in an ICCF wall. If the water contacts only materials that don't dry-rot, mold, and stain, do you have a problem? Kind of a variation of "if a tree falls over in the forest and nobody’s there, does it make a sound?" The correct answer is probably "who cares?"  With proper ventilation, you won’t even know whether there’s "water" in your walls.

But first, as to keeping the water out or minimized or getting it back out if it gets in. Use lime stucco instead of cement. Better yet natural hydraulic lime (NHL) stucco. This is the traditional old-world stucco (going back to Roman times). It costs 2 to 3 times more than cement stucco, so it’s fallen out of favor. But you get what you pay for. It works much better, and for ICCF construction, it is probably the solution to water worries. While it’s possible to build waterproof cement structures (think swimming pools, boat hulls, and cisterns), this can also be done with non-cement stucco (think Roman baths, Roman barges, and Roman aquaducts). One interesting difference is that capillary action in NHL draws calcium into any tiny cracks and seals them. Since NHL isn’t brittle like cement, my experience is that it has far fewer cracks to begin with. Further, NHL breaths. It can let water back out. It seems odd to have a damp membrane as your water barrier, but it's like a canvas tent. Do you care if the walls of the tent are moist if you’re warm and dry inside?

Back to the interior. For the belt and suspenders approach, I think it’s very important to have interior materials that don’t rot, mold and stain. To this end, wood and drywall are out for window bucking and interior walls. That eliminates ICCF construction for anyone who can’t think outside the (stick frame drywall) box. My answer is plaster to the interior. I’ve seen quite a bit of Structolite (gypsum-based plaster) on ICCF, but I’m going to use natural earthen plaster. It is easier to work, easier to repair, and I’ve found it doesn’t stain (except of you spill red wine on it). Unlike Structolite, it can be reworked to repair gouges or stains. It also breaths much better and has a huge capacity for water/moisture absorption.

So my solution to moisture issues in ICCF construction is basically mud on the outside and mud on the inside. Sounds primitive, but based on thousands of years of testing and development, it’s the best solution that I’ve seen. I think of it as maximizing the masonry and minimizing the stick framing.

I don’t have any exterior/interior finish on my ICCF right now and probably won’t put anything on until late in the spring when the weather is better. This allows me to watch the performance of the bare ICCF and wind driven rain. So far, I’ve seen water run down the outside of the structure and I see tell that it collects at the glue lines on the blocks when it dries out. You can see this in the following picture with snow on the roof. But I’ve yet to find any water migrating into the interior. January and February are our rainiest months, so I’ll get some more testing in. My guess is that 95% of water intrusion issues with ICCF are opening/flashing issues, the same as with any type of construction.  It may be the thought of ICCF being water permiable troubles people more than the actual performance warrents.

Mark




Attachment: 101_1529 (Medium).jpg

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19 Jan 2009 10:15 PM
Mark,
Nice looking place! Thanks for the info. Please keep us informed, I would like to hear about the entire composite ICF experience.

I am with you, if it absorbs water, so what if it doesn't make it through to the living space. However I wonder how a wet insulation performs?


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Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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20 Jan 2009 02:00 AM
"I wonder how a wet insulation performs?"

Wet fiberglass insulation doesn't perform.  In fact moist fiberglass doesn't perform and the material tends to slightly compress under its own weight and stay compressed.  Once wet, fiberglass doesn't meet its R value numbers (assuming it ever did).  Wet styrofoam is a different situation.  It works when its wet and still works when it dries out again.  

If water vapor migrates in from the cold rain through the ICCF, I'd have to heat it to maintain the desired indoor air temp.  But then when I exhaust it though the ERV, the dense moist air would add more BTUs to the dry incoming air, so I get that energy back. 

Humidity could be interesting, and I'm monitoring that right now with a humidistat even though the house is presently unsided, unheated, and uninsulated.  So far, it's been about 10% below outdoor humidity, maybe just from solar gain?

Mark



Bruce FreyUser is Offline
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20 Jan 2009 03:16 AM
Posted By Mark Fleming on 01/19/2009 1:17 PM

........But the big problem with cement stucco is that once you get water inside, you have to deal with it. How you deal with it depends on what the water contacts. If the water contacts wood, the paper coating on drywall, or the backside of a painted surface, you have problems. The problems are generally dry-rot, mold, and staining. If it’s a building material that can be "composted," it’s too "green" to be in an ICCF wall. If the water contacts only materials that don't dry-rot, mold, and stain, do you have a problem? Kind of a variation of "if a tree falls over in the forest and nobody’s there, does it make a sound?" The correct answer is probably "who cares?"  With proper ventilation, you won’t even know whether there’s "water" in your walls.


Thanks for the stucco and earth plaster information!

As long as there is a way for any leakage to drain/dry without affecting the interior, you are right.....who cares.  That is an important point that applies to any exterior wall.

Modern commercial building curtainwalls use reserviors and weeps to deal with leakage and to serve as a "second line of defense". 

Bruce


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06 Jun 2009 01:17 PM
Hi Daniela! Did Marly Porter build your home? He built a rastra home for us and we had numerous issues with water leakage around windows, through doors, and where the rastra met the foundation. It cost nearly $30,000 to remedy THAT problem. We also had roof, stucco, plumbing, and window issues. I hope your experience was not as horrible as ours src=http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/images/emoticons/mad.gif width=20 height=20> src=http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/images/emoticons/mad.gif width=20 height=20>


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06 Jun 2009 03:23 PM
You can use dye if you need to identify where water is coming from.


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06 Jun 2009 08:07 PM
thanks. We finally got most of the leaks fixed. We have one more glass sliding door to replace and then we should be water tight!


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26 Oct 2009 03:37 PM
Hello everyone,
Almost two years since we moved and our water problems aren't completely solved. I firmly believe now that there is no way that a product like Sto stucco can be applied right on top of the rastra wall  and offer sufficient water intrusion protection. Anyway, thank you again for all the help and I please Pantry ( who built the house with M. Porter) contact me at (512) 497 1607 so that we can discuss our past / present problems/ building  experiences  and solutions.
And also Mark Fleming must have finished his home and I wish to hear about it.
Daniela



Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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26 Oct 2009 08:58 PM
"Mark Fleming must have finished his home." Hardy, har, har. I "should" have finished my home. Not too much has happened on the outside since the last picture that I posted. The inside plumbing, HVAC, mechanical, etc. is done. The electrical boxes are in and I'm going to start wiring this week (or maybe next week). I take too many vacations. As to the Rastra, it has gone through several rain storms without any problems. Driving rain hits the windows (and the walls, of course), but I can't find any indication of any moisture coming in. On the gable ends, the rain can hit the wall/windows on the second floor, but there is no evidence of water on the first floor walls or on the slab on grade. I don't have the hydronic heat up and running yet, but the zero clearance fireplace is operating. After coming back from vacation (a few weeks in Greece and Turkey), the humidity in the unheated house was at 72% (of course, exterior humidity was above 90%, as it generally is in the early fall in Seattle). When I fired up the fireplace, humidity dropped to 65% and there was no indication of dampness in the walls even though the unfinished Rastra was wet on the exterior from our recent rains. Since my windows are cemented in place, and the cement forms the exterior sill, water does not get "inside" the plane of the Rastra wall at the windows. It clearly hits the outside surface of the Rastra, but that doesn't seem to create a problem. Maybe I'm just lucky. Mark

Attachment: 101_1482 (Small).jpg

PhilsladeUser is Offline
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13 Dec 2009 04:28 AM
Marley Porter was the builder we chose to remodel a large residence located a couple of miles north of Daniela's home. We devoted four years and well over a million dollars to the project. When Marley Porter visited Daniela some time back, she mentioned our project. She later told us he acted as if he did not know us. Here are pics of the original main house and the first of Marley Porter's study models, looking at the same side of the building.

Attachment: Original.jpg
Attachment: StudyModel.jpg

lowlander lizUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2011 01:57 AM
Most everybody seems to be complaining about Water leakage with Restra Type home. We are in the process of maybe purchasing a new repo made with Restra. We need to talk to the man who was involved in the building of this home, it was a instruction basis to the owners who lost the home. It seems pretty sturdy construction. I do have several questions. They have a beautiful concrete slab outside in the patio area, but no patio overhead. If you can't nail or place wood along this how to attach a patio to this material, how do you attach it. Also they placed wood all around it which is spiliting and breaking down rapidly. You can't nail it on with another type of wood any thoughts as to what we might have to use for a face around the edge under the roof area. Now that we found out you can't screw into it, or nail into into. How do you hold it to the sides of the house.
They placed wood around the windows never finished the wood, so this is cracking and bubbling because of snow and rain in our area most of these wood is around the window area. Also around the bottom of the door frames where snow and water has accumulated the steps under the doors are breaking off. My husband thought we could place a metal plate and glue it on what is left of the bottom of the door. Any thoughts or hints would be very much appreciated. We haven't closed on the home yet, my husband is going to talk to the man the builder who guided the original homeowner. He has be doing Restra type homes in the area for 22 years, so I believe he knows he business. Any other questions we might need to know to ask him,
would appreciate your help in this endeavor.


Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2011 01:02 PM
I can't belive I was still subscribed to this thread. I was supposed to get my final inspection and certificate of occupancy last week on my "Rastra-type" house, but the inspector couldn't find the gate code and we never met (I'm in about a half of a mile past the gate, so he just left). I should get the final this week.

As to water intrusion, stucco, ICCF, and my prior comments, I advocated for natural plaster in and out, but when I went looking for a subcontractor, I couldn't find anyone local with experience. I've noted before that if a tradesman doesn't have experience with a material, their first comment is "that won't work." After going round and round, I found a stucco contractor I liked, but he wanted to use STO acrylic stucco. I'd done my research and knew that it would work, so I agreed. The STO product consists of a base coat applied with a 1/4" fiberglass mesh with a colored sanded coat applied over the top (and a third coat for most textured finishes).

The STO material has a fairly high perm rating, meaning that interior humidity can slowly pass through the interior plaster, the ICCF, and the exterior walls. Probably more important, if water enters the walls, it can drain down through the Rastra-type ICCF or (much slower) evaporate through the acrylic stucco. As I've stated before, my design doesn't have any wood in the walls, widow bucking, door thresholds, etc., so water in the walls isn't a big issue. My walls are sitting on a concrete footing, but the footing is below the grade of the interior slab. The interior slab is above the exterior grade. So if water enterred the walls, it would drain down through and exit without me knowing it was there.

I have a temporary certificate of occupancy, so I've been in the house for 6 months (mostly on weekends). On December 12-13, we had a wind and rainstorm with over 9 inches of rain (that's not an uncommon temperate rain forest weekend). We had a similar wind and rainstorm a week ago. Absolutely no issues of water intrusion. In fact, I've been dealing with low humidity in the house. With a wood cook stove and a zero clearance fireplace, it's easy to get the humidity below 40%. I think that the low humidity was beginning to open up seams in the hardwood floors upstairs. I now boil water on the stove when cooking and we have stopped using the bathroom fan when taking a shower. This gets things back up to 50%.

My experience is different because my water issues were addressed and the design/build stage. Once the building is up and there's a problem, you're stuck trying to retrofit flashing, caulking windows, etc. I don't think that there is a magic cure-all for "water intrusion in a Rastra-type wall" because the problem isn't generally the ICCF (which is where everyone focuses their attention), but how the ICCF wall was designed, built, finished, etc. If there was any "cure-all", it would be to be inventive . You're not working with traditional materials so the solutions may well be untraditional.

For those who are interested in my project and are still following this thread, here's the link to my whole blog. I suppose that there is a better way than just dates to label the archives, but I haven't really spent any time figuing out how the blog works. And while it's fun for me to go back through the old pictures, it tends to remind me just how long this project took.

All that's left now is some trim in the stairway and finish the natural landscaping. You can click on the pictures a few times and zoom in for details.

http://dewattohouse.blogspot.com/

A couple of off-topic observations: 1) natural landscaping is way more work than going to a nursery and buying stuff in pots. I've broken two shovels digging up native plants and digging them up is at least three times more work than planting them. I'm hoping that the plus side will be that, by planting "weeds," I'll never have to weed a lawn. 2) living in my ICCF house constantly reminds me of how inefficient, uncomfortable, drafty, noisey, etc, our house in town is. I instantly notice my scratchy eyes and cold feet when I get home. We're seriously considering selling even in this down market.

Markbe inventive


Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2011 01:54 PM
Liz,

You can attach material to Rastra, but it can be tricky.  The concrete on the inside the wall is in the shape of a giant screen, with concrete posts and laterals 15 inches on center and 6 inches wide (check for your particular product).  The centers of these concrete posts and laterals come within 2 inches of the surface of the wall (again, check for your particular product).  As with a wood frame wall, you need to know were the "studs" are for a good connection (generally 16 inches on center and within 1 inch of the surface for wood wall construction).  With Rastra-type ICCF, you have a 15" o.c. criss-cross pattern of posts and laterals and will have to go in at least 3 or 4 inches with your attachment screw to connect to the concrete.  You're going to be attaching to concrete, so the screw might have to be a 5 or 6" TapCon type of screw.  And, you'll need a roto-hammer drill with a long bit.  But it can be done.  Whatever you attach will have to have sufficient bearing surface so that the screw head doesn't collapse the ICCF (I've never had this problem, but I suppose it's possible).

Here's a photo of wood attached to Rastra.  I wanted wood "sleepers" for the cabinets in the kitchen.  I located the columns in the ICCF walls and used TapCons to attach strips of plywood.  Then, I could use traditional screws to attach the cabinets to the wood.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_L702zl54Y...1_2437.jpg

For window and door bucking, you again have to locate the concrete posts and laterals in the rough opening.  Once you have located one, you can simply measure 15" to the next.  The only wood in my structure below the second floor is the pressure-treated wood buckings for the entrance doors.  The door on the left in this picture shows the pressure treated wood that was cast into the block wall to serve as a nailing base for the door.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_L702zl54Y...1_1305.jpg

My other door bucking was attached after the concrete was poured.  Again, I used TapCons. 

It sounds like your windows and doors might have been installed without pressure-treated wood.  I'm sure that's not what Rastra or any similar manufacturer specifies.  Untreated wood against concrete isn't a good practice in most building situations, whether the wall is ICCF or not.  Or, it could be that you have treated window and door buckings and it's just the trim that's rotting.  That's not uncommon in any type of construction if the wrong materials were used.  The wood trim around my doors could rot, but the bucking is probably good for 30 years even with moisture exposure.

Although removing the windows and doors would be a pain, it might also allow you to devise some type of flashing that would protect from water intrusion.

Mark


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