True, it's a balance Jim. I don't know the details of how the waterproofing was decided, and if the builder has been in the role of expert and the homeowner followed his recommendations, you may be right... the contractor should have known that there are underground water flows by the time excavation was done, and he should have known that P&S is inadequate in that case. And it goes without saying that it was not stuck on well. In that case he should pay the full freight. But I was giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

The overall goal is to honestly address the very real problems, without this having to go to contractor's bond or insurance or suit (where the contractor will lose), and to get this fixed as quickly as possible, with the right party paying. A side benefit for the industry, is to either improve the contractor's knowledge and improve his practices, or get him out.

mysafehaven, be advised that Jim Eggert is a licensed Building Official, with expertise in ICF, in case he is in your area.

I live in South Central MI. Any expert that lives close by? We are the general contractor but the guy that contracted the ICF is also the site supervisor. He is a hands on installer of ARXX, he did the framing and roofing. He pretty much contracted to put the shell up. We are doing the electrical drywall, insulation and all the finishing. I will go to the site this weekend and take pictures. Thank you for all your help.

I would expect someone to complete a shell in 90 days or less; I would hope a lot less :-)

My comments on warranty issues would be to review how its set-up, as an example, the ancillary parts of the contract, mechanicals in this case, usually don't start until the CO, or the space is occupied. Therefore, why would the contractor in this case, install say heating equipment, that could get water damaged, when he has caused the water issue?

I will say that the Arxx product is fine; they have no backbone is helping the consumer mitigate problems related to "installer" issues! Again, it's not the product' fault, but there is no problem installer list.......no one wants to go there!

Subsequently, installer Clyde could do the same quality install as Fred, but if Clyde always has water problems, they are probably not analyzing the necessary requirements properly. Unfortunately, even though MFGs suggest waterproofing, it is really up to the owner/contractor/excavator/foundation contractor/designer/architect.....SOMEONE.....has to have the basic construction knowledge to determine the best way to waterproof based on site conditions!

There are no inexpensive second chances!

So to summarize, we have 2 basic problems. ( haven't we all heard this before?)

1. Improper consolidation
2. Failure of waterproofing.

Cures are

1. Probe the wall to locate all voids and search out all "voids" and "honeycomb"
    Grout in place.
2. Excavate the exterior foundation wall and install an "Air Gap" drainage system.
    Re-inspect and remediate all permeter drainage tiles and ensure their function.
3. Remove the installer permanently from the ICF industry.
    He has older installs out there...what damage has he done previously ?

Causes

1. I maintain all installs should be "signed off" with inspections mandated by the manufacturers.
    Certifying installers should be a much more intensive program than what exists now.

    I also think manufacturers are a little too aggresive in their marketing to amateur installers.
     It isn't as fn easy as "they" make out. We'all know that.

    Of course, if we wish to follow the lead of the EIFS industry, lets just carry on this way and implode
     because of the admittance of incompetants.

    I just love the thought of all of us who take pride in our work getting "dumbed down" by this crapola.
 
    It wasn't the "buyer" who certified the incompetant. And the buyer shouldn't be in the situation he is now in.
    He bought into the industry line of product performance, and that is what he has paid for.

    Any Manufacturer's  Reps willing  to respond ?

Eric, a third problem is that the concrete mix was wrong. I believe he used a 3" or 4" slump. Should have been a 6". I hear from you guys that in Europe they are now using up to 20" (!), but no one here is able to substantiate this.

True, manufacturers give the impression that ICF is easier than it really is; but understand that they are under tremendous pressure to grow the industry and make quotas. Aren't we all? So this is why I pound on installers like this, because we must police our own and either show them the light, or get them out. Accuracy and discipline are vital.

Ostensibly, the process of certification includes classroom training and field certification, but in practice everyone is spread so thin that it rarely happens the way it should.

We have used the light method to check for voids in walls both ours and other builders.

At night we take a high intensity light and shine it on the wall from the inside, the light will shine through if there is a void.

We had one job that was out of the ordinary 14' side walls, the waterproofing sub told the client that ICF walls where full of voids based on his experiance ( we never hired that sub again) after checking the walls with the light and the home owner there while we did it we only found one small void in a corner about the size of a baseball it was where several rebar came together. The home owner was very satisfied with the results of the inspection and he was able to see how well the light shined through the wall where the void was.

We now do this on every job regardless of weather we think we did a good job or not. We have also been asked to come in after another contractor has done a job and either a void has been found or is suspected because of water penetration, so far we have always found the voidif there was one. The last job we did was a brand that we do not use but we dug out the three year old back fill all around the foundation, pressure washed the forms, removed the peel and stick, removed the unfinished dry wall (luckily) and proceeded with our inspection the void we found was 22' away from the area that the water was coming into through the dry wall, upon further inspection we discovered that the void was directly above an electrical junction box in the wall and was following the conduit placed in the concrete over to an area where the conduit went down into the floor and crossed over under the floor to the mech room. The void was repaired but still left questions of how the moisture was getting through the waterproof, as it turned out this was below a large picture window on the main level that had not been flashed on the horizontal plane so that also had to be remedied.

NICE POSTING cattail bill! C'est incredible!
WOW.
So ONE void doesn't neccesarrily mean walls full of voids!???
And water leaking in a house is not ALWAYS directly the result of a shoddy or inept ICF installer?? So patience and proper information is neccessary to form a true judgement after all?!!

This is a great example of Problem Solving at its finest, kind of gives a new meaning to "trickle down factor," eh?

Kevin

Cattail Bill, so we have to dig out the soild around in order for us to use the high intensity light test? Also what kind of light and where do we get it? I wish my installer did that before backfilling but we are here now. I was not able to take any pics yet because we had ice storm and now snow storm. About 12 in now. Cannot get to the job site. We are thinking of just taping plastic over the foams where water has been coming out so we can put the drywall and pain. We need to get our certificate of occupancy so we can convert our construction loan to mortgage otherwise the bank says they want us to pay $350,000 by April if we do not convert. If come spring and we get flooded in the basement. Can I come after the installer and will his insurance pay for all the fixing that needs to be done? The installer is not rich and is having hard time fnding job with the Michigan market and I am afraid he will ask us to pay out of our pocket because he cannot afford to pay for it. Although it is not right, I do not think I will be able to get blood out of a rock. So we will be in deep mess if his insurance will not pay. And for how long will his insurance pay if it is workmanship defect. What if we put the drywall and it absorbs the water and no flooding shows until 2 yrs down the road when we start getting sick with mold? Will the insurance still pay?

My safe haven :

Sometimes you have to backtrack before you can move forward with confidance. This is the case here.

There is no way to repair your foundation drainage system without re-excavating the whole perimeter. Sorry.

A good "air gap" installation on top of your peel and stick , coupled with a 4 in tile at u/s of footing elevation will

solve your water penetration problem.

Do not scrimp on clear stone over your tile, and use filter cloth over everything before backfilling.

Water follows the path of least resistance, so you have to define the path for it, or it will choose another.

Having an access to your drain tile for flushing as suggested by Greg Fleming is a smart move also.

Bill's light method for void locating is very innovative.

Again, the hoseman on the pour wasn't paying attention to his job.

Personally, I do not think you should be burdened with the repair costs, but that is between you and your builder.

Knowing that the problems exists now, will allow any Insurance Co. to void coverage, so forget that one.

Too bad your guy didn't do it right the first time.

The light that we use is a converted twin head halogen shoplight. We took some tin and made a shroud it only sticks out beyond the light 3" painted it white to get the most effect and installed it on the lights. We then installed roller blade wheels to the sides of this so the tin would clear the foam by about an 1/8" the length of the units 29" that is just how it worked out so that the lights overlapped each others beam. We then installed two handels on the sides, what we do is run this up and down the wall the wheels leave a little indentation so you know where to move for the next run. With one person on the outside watching for lite and the other on the inside running the light. This is not the perfect solution as it does not work in the corners very well.

The other thing that can give a false read is the moon light or a near by yard light or street light, when we get a reflection from those items we tend to probe those areas besides the light. For the most part those areas have a different light to them than the areas that have a genuine void.

Take a test with a form, cover the form with black plastic or what ever will seal the light off, place a shop light against the opposite side and see the light that is sent through the form this will give you an idea of what type of light you are looking for. I am not saying this is 100% because it will not shine through areas with a honey comb only the ones where a clear void is present.

On another note make sure you look for other possible points that water could be getting in and traveling to a different spot to come out remember that water takes the path of least resistance.

Last for this post once you have found and repaired the voids follow the other recomendations in this forum and do a good external water proof system and drain tile, at that point you should be fairly comfortable with finishing the project.

In regards to the insurance it will depend if the contractor has insurance that will cover this or not perhaps working out a deal with the contractor to come and help with the repairs and the cost will be easier than fighting an insurance company.

OK, the installer does not have deep pockets; hopefully he was cheap and you saved there. In practice he probably doesn't have the money and this means you'll have to pay. But if you do not address this now, you will have a swamp in your basement forevermore, if not worse.

Say it in simple words: make sure he understands that this was caused by too thick a concrete, inadequate (or no) vibrating/consolidation, and peelNstick that didn't stick. In other words, it's his fault. So I would work out with him that you will rent the excavator if he will dig out the backfill. He should then remove the bottom ~2' of foam, and then you can see what is what. He should fill voids as needed with concrete, and glue up new foam panels. Maybe he can just unpeel the peelNstick and tie it up for the foamwork, so it can be reused for the inner barrier in the dimpled system; it will not restick when it's cold though. Please have him use peelNstick window flashing (cold-weather flavor) for the joints, for good measure. Then have him install the dimpled membrane by Delta (MS clear), Platon, J-Drain, SuperSeal, etc. Check your local mason's supply. And if you do not have drainpipes at the footer level which drain to sump (or daylight), this must be installed or you're wasting your time.

If the installer is not willing to get along with you, in the immortal words of Jim Malone in the movie "The Untouchables": what are you willing to do? What price are you willing to pay?

Mysafehaven:
I would try Infra Red Thermography to locacte the exact source of the water. It might also show you voids in the walls. That would depend on the temperature difference between the voids and the solid wall. Check out thermography at: LINK and at: LINK . It is amazing the problems you can solve with those cameras. I hate to repeat myself but after you know where the water is coming from then you can fix it. You don't want to excavate around the house just to check. You can tap on the walls and poke with a thin rod for that. IF the water is ground water that can't be kept away from the house then you will have to excavate to fix it. Don't even think about putting up drywall untill you fix the problem. As far as the bank goes talk to them. I can tell you they are much more interested in getting their money than getting an unfinished house with a problem. Find another mortage broker to get some advice. If there is a real estate investors group in your area they might have some good contacts for you as far as loan advice is concerned.

Will the excavator be able to dig the soil at this time of the year? Sorry as I am not sure if they can dig when the ground is frozen. Just want to say that the installer is on the median side of the bid. I had 60k, 80k and 100k bids for the ICF above and below ground. I chose him at 80k. I thought I did my research. I even went to his job sites and visited a whole house ICF he did 5 yrs ago and the customer was still happy.

The excavator should be fine digging this time of year, it may require the use of a thaw dog or blanketing to thaw out the ground and you will probably have to tent the out side and intro some heat inorder to keep the ground from refreeze. this will obviously add to the cost but is able to be done.

The excavator will also want to stay a little ways away from the foam and the remaining dirt will have to be hand removed.

mysafehaven,

Before you start excavating, I encourage you to do two things:
1. Try to identify the extent of voids from the inside. You've received several good relatively nondestructive ways to do this from the basement. You may only need to have the contractor remove foam from inside wall of that one area and patch if that's the only void.

2. Try to identify other sources of water besides a failed membrane - i.e. - be sure that it is not a flashing issue. As others have said a bad flashing (or no flashing) can allow a lot of water to enter the walls ABOVE the waterproofing and will not be fixed by rewaterproofing. Try removing the foam in the area where the waterfilled void is. First flood the ground all around the entire wall with the void. Watch for water intrusion in the void. If water comes in then you have a waterproofing problem. If not, let the area dry for a week and then wait spray a lot of water against the doors and windows on that entire wall like a good rainstorm. See if you get any water intrusion in the void area.

Excavating and rewaterproofing is the WORST CASE scenario. You should not jump to this level first.

As far as putting up the drywall to get a CO - that's going to have to be your decision as it's your finances. Understand that the contractor is going to be less helpful once the CO is issued and you have paid him (and I assume he will get full final payment when the CO is issued)

I agree with greg did not mean to get you jumping the gun start with the simple and progress as needed.

Thanks Greg for catching that, that is what is great about this form/ lots of solutions to choose from starting at the begining.

I will work on doing what greg suggested. I will keep you posted and we will definitely find out more when the rain comes next spring :(

Try Eldon Howe

1-231-349-0955

He can likely help, or advise someone who can in lower michigan, he is in grand rapids area.

Hi mysafehaven:

You have gotten great advice on what might be the problem and what needs to be done to fix the problem. However, let me suggest that you also consider ...

1) what  your ICF contractor says about what happened ... I mean what does he think what the problem is, and what does he think what needs to be done to fix the problem

2) have you talked to ARXX people at all ... I am sure they will be interested in looking at the situation and advising you what might be the problem, and what needs to be done to fix the problem

3) have you talked to P n S supplier / representative ? they may or may not want to get involved ... but it is woth a try!

4) it has been presumed that a stiff mix was used ... have you talked to your readymix supplier ... at what slump was the concrete supplied; did you have any air entrainment in the mix? did you use any superplasticiser in the mix? or how about any other admixture?
and also how was the concrete placed ... was it pumped?, or was it placed with a chute?
was the concrete vibrated? did the contractor use external vibration? did the contractor use tapping of the form surface?
any thing unusual that might have occurred during pouring

5) have you asked your doors and windows installer to come out and have a look at their work ... whether everything is flashed and sealed properly?

6) have you asked your roofer to come out and have a look whether every thing is flashed properly

What I am trying to get at is that have all the people who worked on your house project work as a team, and instead of any finger pointing put all the cards on the table, and try to collectively sort out where the problem might be;

because of your emotional involvement in this project, you may want to have some one else act as a moderator who can lead the discussion with everyone involved in an objective manner

my feeling is that all the parties involved in your project would like to have the project be a success ... so what you need to do is get their
input so that no possibility is left out

I am hoping that with the combined effort of all the people involved on the project, you might be able to come up with a solution that is practical and is also cost effective

So, Good Luck ... and please do keep us posted with the progress!

 

I will call Mr Howe if this thing is not solved.

1. My contractor thinks it is no big deal about the air pockets and water coming through the walls. He said he will patch the pockets that we found. I am looking for ice pick to use as the bamboo skewers keeps on breaking. I am still waiting for him to patch the walls as he seems to be busy with another project

2. I have not contacted the Arrx people at all. I do not know who to contact as the distributor in my area is best of friends of my contractor as my contractor gives him good business

3. What is a P n S supplier / representative?

4. The distributor is also the concrete supplier. I am sorry to say that it was last winter that the concrete were poured and we did not go and watch them pump the concrete through the foams. We thoroughly trusted our installer to do whatever needs to be done properly. We did watch the marketing video from Arrx on how it is supposed to be installed and I did not know that there are other ways concrete is to be poured. I thought that in general with ICF you should do the vibration to elliminate air pockets.

5 and 6. My ICF contractor is my framer, roofer, window and door installer. We have checked the windows and doors and they seem to have been flashed properly. We have not gone up the roof because of the snow.

I have just been talking to the installer via the phone as he is busy with another project. He said that he did go to the site and looked at the air pockets we found and where water was gushing out with just the minimal rain we had a few weeks ago. I have not yet talked to him face to face at the job site and go around the area. It does not seem to bother him but I am very much concerned because the basement needs to be finished very soon.