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PERFORMANCE and TOLERANCE Guide for ICF Walls.
Last Post 21 Dec 2009 02:03 PM by markross. 44 Replies. |
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jstelmack
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 25 Nov 2009 10:08 AM |
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Novice to ICF's here. My comment applies to most any industry, especially when introducing an alternative technology or system to the masses.
Wouldn't credibility be elevated when the development of standards are championed by the particular industry association? Standards mean nothing without a respected and authoritative body promoting them. That is how standards eventually get accepted into code. Giving code officials a set of standards by which they can measure success (or failure), it seems to me, to be the ultimate goal for any industry associated with construction.
Or am I missing something?
John
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rvalue
New Member
Posts:66
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| 25 Nov 2009 11:29 AM |
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Joseph;
I can appreciate what you say about withholding payment. I have a customer withholding for a driveway that doesn't "look" like she had in mind.
To that end, I appreciate the tolerance idea, but I would personally like to see them expanded to include foaming gaps and acceptable remedies as well as increased by at least 50%.
A good point was just raised about an industry organization. What is going on with the ICFA?
Jake Vierzen
R-Value Concrete Structures |
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Details matter!
Jake Vierzen
R-Value Homes
Grand Rapids, MI
616.299.3654 |
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 29 Nov 2009 12:13 PM |
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A summary of what is on the table so far for Guidelines and Tolerances for ICF.
ICFA
Need to be involved for credibility.
Foam Gaps:
Any gap that is greater than ¼” shall be filled.
Acceptable Remedies:
Need to be established for each category.
National Certification Program: ( proposed)
Level One: Classroom only.
Level Two: Three categories:
Residential – Below grade foundations (Slab on Grade)
Residential – Second level
Commercial
Level Three: Has completed three projects in each level with a certified installer.
Level Four: Trainer status
- this would apply regardless of the manufacturer.
Licensed Third Party Inspectors:
Certified by the ICFA to mediate any issues.
PLUMB
Walls shall not be out of plumb more than 1/4”/6mm in 10ft. /3m or 25mm/ 1” in total height of any building exceeding 9m/30ft. when measured from the base to the top of wall.
BOWED
Walls shall not bow in a horizontal or vertical plane of wall surface, any more than ¼”/5mm in 10ft. /3M
DIMENSIONAL
Wall lengths shall not exceed +/- ¼’/5mm in any wall section.
DIAGONAL
No more than ½”/13mm in any square measurement.
* When we say ¼”/6mm measured over 10ft/3M of wall surface, this means that same ¼”/6mm is to be applied over an 18”/500mm or a 36”/1000mm wall surface.
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ICF372
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 29 Nov 2009 07:41 PM |
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This is a standard that is greatly needed. We have been debating “just what” is needed for certification, back and fourth within our company. This last post for certification/training and tolerances is close. The ¼” is a desired tolerance that is easily achieved, however I don’t believe it will be the average in this industry.
The first level of our current project is within a ¼” of square and straight as a pin on the longest walls of 143’-3”. Not to bad I think.
But this is only a part of the equation.
Beyond plus or minus ¼” wall dimensional tolerances, and more importantly is proper concrete consolidation procedures.
Proper concrete consolidation in commercial and multi story structures is an even bigger issue.
Who will pay for certification?
How much will it cost?
Will it include reparative measures?
Will students strip foam to see if concrete is consolidated?
Will the concrete be lab tested to see if proper psi has been achieved?
I think a requirement of filling foam form gaps is silly as most forms that fit perfectly when assembled will shrink and leave small gaps anyway.
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Eldon Howe<br>Howe Construction
[email protected]
<br><br>Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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richm
Basic Member
Posts:107
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| 01 Dec 2009 10:16 PM |
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I do not have anything to do with ICFs so I do not have an axe to grind!.........I Googled "HUD/PATH ICF Prescriptive Method" and skimmed over the document. I could not find "tolerences" that you folks are speaking of, but perhaps you could suggest "tolerences" be added to the Presciptive Method.
I am sure it would take awhile but maybe some of the talent who worked on the original document would be interested in up-dating and adding "tolerences" to the document. It might accomplish what you are talking about doing.
Just a suggestion.
Rich Melius |
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Quad-Lock
New Member
Posts:30
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| 02 Dec 2009 10:30 AM |
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Hello, the ICFA has adopted a "Code of Ethics" and a "Standards and Practices" document in
2004. Many of the mentioned qualitative 'standards' are covered for manufacturers, distributors, and installers - but not to the level of detail or quantitative tolerances you envision here. Only a handful of ICF manufacturers and dealers/contractors pay their ICFA dues to promote the industry - maybe Hobbs and others will join? As an industry (with enough paying ICFA / PCA members) we may be able to change some rules of the game, e.g. prohibit wood-frame walls in coastal or high-wind areas! Georg Kustermann |
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ICFconstruction
Veteran Member
Posts:1324
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| 03 Dec 2009 08:02 PM |
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The ICFA would be the natural choice. I thought all the professionals here were ICFA members....They should be.
1/4" in 10ft is not difficult at all to achieve. And one inch in a muti story project is too much. But is there any other wall standard with other materials? |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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| 03 Dec 2009 09:37 PM |
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I dont get the point of the standards. Something to shoot for? I hope so. Shoot for perfect. And if your wall falls out of standards then what? Are you going to refund the customer or maybe rip it out and start over? Likely.
I would agree standards would be great for generals who can withhold and backbill for out of tolerance work, that would be nice. A contractor should pride his work his work to as perfect as possible, published standards are for homeowners lawyers. |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 04 Dec 2009 05:23 AM |
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Greentree.........bang on.
Give the GC's/Lawyers/Owners another reason to prevent paying us ontime or in full.
The focus of this thread should be on installer education/training and certification ,
jobsite inspection procedures and manufacturer responsibilities.
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 05 Dec 2009 03:34 PM |
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Brad and George
My apologizes gentlemen, I was unaware that many of the ICF professionals who interact on this form, were ICFA members. (how could I tell).
If this is the case, then I must admit to being impressed, that your companies have” ICF Specialist Designations.”
For those of you who don’t know what this represents, these companies all have one or all of these designations, and must re-verify the criteria’s to maintain these designations each and every year.
www.forms.org/files/pdf/ICFSpecialistProgramOverview.pdf
ICF Residential Installer
ICF Light Commercial Installer
ICF Commercial Installer
ICF Residential CONTRACTOR
ICF Commercial CONTRACTOR.
I don’t know why you don’t showcase these designations on your company websites.
They are very impressive and you should show them off.
I did notice, that in the DISCLAIMER section, that it says “The ICF specialist program does not indicate the suitability of a company’s quality assurance program to construct ICF walls, floors and decks”
Perhaps you could eliminate the need to make a disclaimer about the quality assurance of an ICF specialist, if they also had to meet the Performance Guidelines and Tolerances that have been proposed on this thread, which by the way, I have not seen one reply, that says that these could not easily be met by companies such as yourselves, especially with the designation “ICF Specialist”.
Perhaps you could share what is included in your quailty assurance programs.
I am sure this could create a flood of new ICFA members, who would” pay their ICFA dues to promote the industry” so they would also be able to promote having one or all the ICF Specialist designations.
What are your thoughts, and also of the other ICFA members out there, about adding the Guideline and Tolerance’s criteria’s to your existing company ICFA -ICF Specialist designations and have the ICFA incorporate them into the ICF specialist program.?
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jmagill
Basic Member
Posts:374
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| 05 Dec 2009 04:07 PM |
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Posted By Joseph Farella on 12/05/2009 3:34 PM Brad and George
My apologizes gentlemen, I was unaware that many of the ICF professionals who interact on this form, were ICFA members. (how could I tell).
If this is the case, then I must admit to being impressed, that your companies have” ICF Specialist Designations.”
For those of you who don’t know what this represents, these companies all have one or all of these designations, and must re-verify the criteria’s to maintain these designations each and every year.
www.forms.org/files/pdf/ICFSpecialistProgramOverview.pdf
ICF Residential Installer
ICF Light Commercial Installer
ICF Commercial Installer
ICF Residential CONTRACTOR
ICF Commercial CONTRACTOR.
I don’t know why you don’t showcase these designations on your company websites.
They are very impressive and you should show them off.
I did notice, that in the DISCLAIMER section, that it says “The ICF specialist program does not indicate the suitability of a company’s quality assurance program to construct ICF walls, floors and decks”
Perhaps you could eliminate the need to make a disclaimer about the quality assurance of an ICF specialist, if they also had to meet the Performance Guidelines and Tolerances that have been proposed on this thread, which by the way, I have not seen one reply, that says that these could not easily be met by companies such as yourselves, especially with the designation “ICF Specialist”.
Perhaps you could share what is included in your quailty assurance programs.
I am sure this could create a flood of new ICFA members, who would” pay their ICFA dues to promote the industry” so they would also be able to promote having one or all the ICF Specialist designations.
What are your thoughts, and also of the other ICFA members out there, about adding the Guideline and Tolerance’s criteria’s to your existing company ICFA -ICF Specialist designations and have the ICFA incorporate them into the ICF specialist program.?
[/quote]
I am curious, you seem to be a bit negative about the ICFA. ( I am not a member, just a homeowner interested in ICF's as a product)
Does your company have a "PERFORMANCE and TOLERANCE Guide for ICF Walls"? Are you leading by example?
Do you have some way that you enforce that?
How do you as someone in the industry see this thread, on this website, leading to something that will be embraced industry wide?
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 06 Dec 2009 09:17 AM |
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I was unaware of the ICF Specialist designation program that the ICFA offers to its members. If I had, I would never have proposed the ICF designations that I did in one of my previous entries. They are excellent and far exceed what I had proposed. As I stated I am very impressed with the ICFA – ICF Specialist program but I do not believe they go far enough when a disclaimer is necessary for quality of work.
A well manufactured ICF system, does not however guaranty a quality installation.
It is the combination of the ICF system and the company that does the installation, that do.
One is only as good as the other.
I want to have in writing a Quality Assurance Program (QAP) complete with guidelines, tolerances, and a stated remedial policy if they are not met, to offer for my customers.
I scoured the internet to find acceptable ICF industry wide tolerances, that I could offer in writing to my clients.
I could not find any, so with full transparency, I started this thread.
No, it is not for me to establish tolerances; it is for the ICF industry to do so.
I have found this form to probably have some of the most passionate, professional and quality ICF companies and individuals in NA, bar none, participating in it.
What better place to find out what good ICF companies and installers use as tolerances and what their parameters are!
When people of this quality and character get involved in this debate, perhaps it will kick start organizations such as the ICFA, and the PCA to get involved and take it to fruition.
Measuring these tolerances is perhaps the easiest part of this to achieve.
A 10 ft. straightedge, a level and a tape measure will tell you all you need to know.
In almost all other industries, usually the difference in not having a written (QAP) and having one is the PRICE.
Where is your exposure if there is no scorecard to hold you accountable to?
And if the price is what it is really all about to someone, then I guess a QAP really doesn’t matter, does it.
My question to you as a homeowner is, if the price is the same, which installer do you choose, the company with a written QAP or one that promises to do a good job, but just do not hold him to it.?
I believe that the companies, installers and manufactures who choose to participate in a written ICF- QAP, and those who choose not to do so, will speak for itself!
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 06 Dec 2009 09:20 AM |
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I was unaware of the ICF Specialist designation program that the ICFA offers to its members. If I had, I would never have proposed the ICF designations that I did in one of my previous entries. They are excellent and far exceed what I had proposed. As I stated I am very impressed with the ICFA – ICF Specialist program but I do not believe they go far enough when a disclaimer is necessary for quality of work.
A well manufactured ICF system, does not however guaranty a quality installation.
It is the combination of the ICF system and the company that does the installation, that do.
One is only as good as the other.
I want to have in writing a Quality Assurance Program (QAP) complete with guidelines, tolerances, and stated remedial policy if they are not met, to offer for my customers.
I scoured the internet to find acceptable ICF industry wide tolerances that I could offer in writing to my clients.
I could not find any, so with full transparency, I started this thread.
No, it is not for me to establish tolerances; it is for the ICF industry to do so.
I have found this form to probably have some of the most passionate, professional and quality ICF companies and individuals in NA, bar none, participating in it.
What better place to find out what good ICF companies and installers use as tolerances and what their parameters are!
When people of this quality and character get involved in this debate, perhaps it will kick start organizations such as the ICFA, and the PCA to get involved and take it to fruition.
Measuring these tolerances is perhaps the easiest part of this to achieve.
A 10 ft. straightedge, a level and a tape measure will tell you all you need to know.
In almost all other industries, usually the difference in not having a written (QAP) and having one is the PRICE.
Where is your exposure if there is no scorecard to hold you accountable to?
And if the price is what it is really all about to someone, then I guess a QAP really doesn’t matter, does it.
My question to you as a homeowner is, if the price is the same, which installer do you choose, the company with a written QAP or one that promises to do a good job, but just do not hold him to it.?
I believe that the companies, installers and manufactures who choose to participate in a written ICF- QAP, and those who choose not to do so, will speak for itself!
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jmagill
Basic Member
Posts:374
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| 06 Dec 2009 09:31 AM |
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Actually as a homeowner, who has built two homes, I know that from experience actions speak much louder than words. You can give me hundreds of pieces of paper that tell me what you will do or think you will do but they mean nothing if you don't follow through.
I will look at the finished jobs as a measure of quality and responsiblity. I will talk to the homeowner and installer before I accept the word of the manufacturer or supplier. Contracts and written promises are broken every day.
This is why I participate in this forum. I can see from the continued input and support of the participants, what products and contractors I would consider for my home. |
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Full ICF Homes
New Member
Posts:73
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| 06 Dec 2009 11:32 AM |
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While it has already been eluded to earlier, there are really no tolerance performance specs for wood frame, or regular concrete foundations. In fact, where I live, you can be a shoe salesman by day, and pour basements on weekends. There are no certification requirements, and certainly no tolerance guidelines.
When you talk of remedial actions with a 2 x 6 exterior wall, you can remove and replace, or cut and drive wedges into studs to straighten them. Haven't heard of any "concrete wedgies" on the market (but am always open to being enlightened).
If that 1/4" guideline is established ... what is the remedial solution for a walls that are 3/8" or 1/2" out of plumb (or any other dimension)? Would it be to remove the wall (or entire foundation) and replace it?
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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| 06 Dec 2009 09:51 PM |
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All Sask,
I'm afraid there is tolerance specs for wood frame. AND you can make hamburgers at Mac D's by day and pour concrete into icf forms procured from big box stores on the weekends as well.
Actually there is also a wood framing contractors quality program made years ago, 37 pages of money making brilliance. Very complete, very specific and easily integrated into a company.
The standards in the guide are set by the contractor, something that should be considered here. I won't post a link, since its fun watching people trying to reinvent the wheel but its not hard to find and honestly would serve as an easily adaptable model for the icf industry. |
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 07 Dec 2009 06:07 AM |
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"If that 1/4" guideline is established ... what is the remedial solution for a walls that are 3/8" or 1/2" out of plumb (or any other dimension)? Would it be to remove the wall (or entire foundation) and replace it?"
Being new to the ICF industry, I to would like to know what everyone has done to remediate a situation such as the one that All Sask is refering to.
What does the the ICFA recommend in this situation?
What does the wood framing contractores quaility program recommend doing in the case?
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Full ICF Homes
New Member
Posts:73
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| 07 Dec 2009 06:23 AM |
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Posted By greentree on 12/06/2009 9:51 PM
All Sask,
I'm afraid there is tolerance specs for wood frame. AND you can make hamburgers at Mac D's by day and pour concrete into icf forms procured from big box stores on the weekends as well.
Actually there is also a wood framing contractors quality program made years ago, 37 pages of money making brilliance. Very complete, very specific and easily integrated into a company.
The standards in the guide are set by the contractor, something that should be considered here. I won't post a link, since its fun watching people trying to reinvent the wheel but its not hard to find and honestly would serve as an easily adaptable model for the icf industry. Perhaps you could re-read my comment. I did not say "ICF on the weekend", I said traditionally formed concrete. ICF work does require certification but traditional doesn't.
Also, there is quite a difference between having guidelines, and the "authorities" actually enforcing them. Personally, my pride is all that I require to shoot for perfection every time, so it doesn't matter what the deviations are.
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Full ICF Homes
New Member
Posts:73
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| 07 Dec 2009 06:23 AM |
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Posted By greentree on 12/06/2009 9:51 PM
All Sask,
I'm afraid there is tolerance specs for wood frame. AND you can make hamburgers at Mac D's by day and pour concrete into icf forms procured from big box stores on the weekends as well.
Actually there is also a wood framing contractors quality program made years ago, 37 pages of money making brilliance. Very complete, very specific and easily integrated into a company.
The standards in the guide are set by the contractor, something that should be considered here. I won't post a link, since its fun watching people trying to reinvent the wheel but its not hard to find and honestly would serve as an easily adaptable model for the icf industry. Perhaps you could re-read my comment. I did not say "ICF on the weekend", I said traditionally formed concrete. ICF work does require certification but traditional doesn't.
Also, there is quite a difference between having guidelines, and the "authorities" actually enforcing them. Personally, my pride is all that I require to shoot for perfection every time, so it doesn't matter what the deviations are.
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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| 07 Dec 2009 08:16 AM |
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Sorry for the confusion, here you can pour traditional and icf without certification, my 18 year old sister could go to menards and buy Fox block and build herself an ICF house if she wanted.
Are you in Canada? What kind of certification do you require? |
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