Posted By jmagill on 08 Apr 2010 06:23 PM
To put this all in perspective. I live in a SIP home. I will be building a new home and I will be using ICF's and SIPS. I will be using a ICF product that will allow me to have the insulation completely on the outside. I will be using the product for it's strengths all the while knowing exactly what its costs and weaknesses are.



Time and time again I see people on this website only tell the good and leave out the negative. That does a disservice to the entire ICF industry.

My hat's off to you with ICF/SIPs and God willing, my next house will be similar.   As you move forward i would be interested in any data you gather -- e.g.  R-value of external foam and thickness of concrete etc.   Regarding the disservice, to the industry -- i for one,  stand behind my beliefs -- when you can show me a better way to build -- I hope i'm smart enough to adopt it.   Yes i feel strongly about it as do a hundred or so customers i know do.  I struggle with a fundamental problem -- how can we help people resolve to build to a higher standard than traditional -- perhaps a 50+ year standard or a 200 plus year standard?   Regards.

A lot more to read!  

Thanks John

See John, what happens is we will get a SIPs guy on here that will refute the R-value of ICF construction because its the best real arguement they have based on the definition of the word, which I would contend is flawed. Wes has been involved with the ICF construction in Kentucky for several years. If you research Kentucky (specifically Bowling Green) you will find that they are building the most ICF schools in the US, two of which are currently under construction and will be completely off the grid (net zero), which in my opinion is the holy grail of building. Here is an article about it (which I believe Wes is involved with)...

http://www.greenrightnow.com/wabc/2009/06/22/schools-go-net-zero-in-kentucky-and-win-national-award/

If you search posts from Texas and Wes you will find that their comments are always pretty straight forward and honest. Texas, Wes, and myself have a few hundred satisfied clients and business remains good in a challenging building enviornment. We have all worked with Richard Rue and found his company's expertise very beneficial both to ourselves and our clients. Call is R-value, thermal mass, low air infiltration, or a duck, if the numbers work they work. For me to come on here and try to misguide someone hurts my credibility, so I don't do it.

I cannot comment on how ICF would work in your specific location, because that is not my expertise. I will however put my system up against a SIPs wall any day.

Best of luck on your continued research, I hope that however you choose to build you are very satisfied with the end result.

renangle

Posted By renangle on 09 Apr 2010 06:00 AM
See John, what happens is we will get a SIPs guy on here that will refute the R-value of ICF construction because its the best real arguement they have based on the definition of the word, which I would contend is flawed.

renangle

Not a SIPS guy, wrong on two counts, not a guy and not a SIP builder or manufacturer. I am however, a very well informed homeowner who has no financial stake on either product. I do work in the building industry but not in a position that advocates either product.

Okay, you are a homeowner, I apologize. Since you apparently work in the building industry, what exactly do you do? Perhaps understanding that would help me understand you a little better.

I have no stake in this thread either as John lives a few thousand miles from me. I was simply trying to answer his question as honestly as possible.

As someone who does work in the ICF industry, I have flown to Bowling Green to see what they have done first hand. The school board officials are thrilled with the results and they have been very wise in their methodology in getting to net zero. Their work should be commended and really should be adopted by our Leaders in D.C. I did not meet with Wes or anyone else with a stake in ICF construction, simply the building officials. If the US really wants to reduce its dependence on foreign oil, I think that what has happened in Bowling Green is a perfect blueprint to do just that.

Having spent thousands of hours researching ICF construction and consulting with professionals (architects, engineers, LEED APs, and Phsyisicts), I have come to the conclusion that ICF construction is the best way to build. I would argue that Wes, TexasICF, and the other professionals have also spent thousands of hours doing the same research and have come to the same conclusion.

I don't really care about R-value and what that definition really means. I am interested in performance, reduced energy costs, sustainable building design, reduced maintenance cost, and most importantly satisfied clients.

renangle

I work for a custom builder, who does homes and commercial projects. Ranging from high end custom cut timber frame homes to airplane hangers with residential quarters in them.

We have incorporated everything from ICF's to structural steel and sprayed insulation. We work with the appropriate product for the design and location and needs and wants of the customer.
Each product meets certain needs and expectations and also has it's own negatives.

I must correct one point that Ren made in his earlier post. I am not directly involved in the Bowling Green KY schools project. However, I am very familiar with them and will add to Ren's post that the KY state board of education is considering making ICF construction mandatory for all future school construction.
I will also add that, like jmcgill, I have been involved in all types of construction, including pole barns, red iron steel, log, timber frame, SIPS and ICF, among others. And each has its place. For residential construction, its hard to beat SIPS and ICFs.

Wes, I agree it is hard to beat either ICF or SIPS. They are both great products and if you choose the one that best meets your needs you are always a winner.

Okay.  We can all be friends now!  Since Kentucky was brought up.... www.futurestone.com has a link to a live camera for school construction in Bowling Green.   Or better you can go right to the guys that help make the ICF portion possible:  www.holdfast.com. 

The following is from the holdfast web site:   

The designation of net-zero for this building means that it will be so energy efficient that over the course of a year, its solar energy panels ... will offset the electricity it takes from the grid. The building will have a reduced energy consumption — 75 percent less when compared to the national average energy consumption of school buildings.   regards.

Haven't been on the site for awhile and it seems that somebody opened a can of worms again!!

Oh, I don't know if its a can of worms, hopefully just good natured banter.

Wes, I had thought that you were involved with one of the schools in Kentucky, sorry for that error.

jmagill, I have come across projects that I have advised against going with ICF because the design made it to costly. I will agree with you that one really needs to research what best system is out there to suite their needs. It is always good in my opinion to be as informed as possible.

Texas, thanks for the additional information on the net zero school in Kentucky, it is going to be a very unique project and look forward to seeing its completion. What they are doing is truly amazing.

We are currently working on the first ICF school in Virginia (scheduled to open in July).

I agree w/ Ren.