Marc Robinson in an experienced ICF Installer in your area. Tell him I referred you. 

MDR Construction, Inc.
53 Ogden Center Road
Spencerport, NY 14559-2021
(585) 352-0676
[email protected]

Posted By tomh on 20 Jun 2010 11:24 AM
We just built an ICF home outside Rochester.  I'm not sure if I would do it again.  Nothing against the product at all, but the problem we had was finding contractors experienced with the product.  If we lived in the Southwest or Florida, where they are prevalent, we wouldn't hesitate to go ICF again. 

We only found three GCs that had worked with it.  Only one had any extensive experience with ICFs and he disappeared half way through the selection process.  The other builder had done one ICF house and the builder we went with had done 5 basements.   Somehow he received nothing but glowing reviews. 

We have been in the house two months now and are having water issues in the basement (see my post "Water issues on new Arxx build - please help"  http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/77261/afv/topic/Default.aspx).  

If you are going to do it, you need to do as much research as possible.  I did a ton, but I now wish I had obtained the installation instructions for each product prior to them being installed.    You also need to be around a lot!  Of course I would probably recommend that for any build regardless of materials.

Hope this helps.

Tom


 

Tom, sorry to hear you had trouble.  We are an ICF friendly concrete contractor in the Syracuse area and have nothing but happy customers. 
To date, I have used Arxx, Nudura, Ice Block, and a lot of Logix.  You aren't building a water tight structure with any foundation system.  As long as you have some type of water proofing installed and a working perimeter drain tile, my first guess on your leaking basement would be water from your roof going right back into your building.  Once that happens, there will be a river from erosion channelling water into any feasable void.  Get your grade pitched away from the house and get some gutters collecting the water and putting anywhere but against the icf and you will be dry as a bone.
Jim

Jim from Elite, please contact me offline when you get a chance. [email protected]

Bruce, your email returned fatal.

That's because it has a typo in it. Sorry. [email protected]

Wisconsin,Minnesota and the province of Ontario are the 3 top regions in North America for the use of ICF. I see no reason why  ICF would not be appropriate in upstate NY.

Water problems should not be an issue in a properly constructed ICF wall or a reason not to chose ICF consruction.

ICF block systems are inherently more likely to leak, simply because of their design.  They are similar to a concrete masonry block, in that, if there is any movement at all, there is potential for a leak anywhere around the block, as there are unsupported vertical and horizontal seams that can shift during the concrete pour, creating weakened planes, where if the concrete cracks, water can find a path can into your basement.

Another major reason for leaky basements is the manner in which the concrete is poured. A typical ICF block has webs every six or eight inches apart. Many contractors are in a hurry to fill the wall up with concrete as fast as they can. Whether it is to save money in labour, or concrete pump rentals, it goes against concrete 101 principles on how to pour a concrete wall.

Whether the concrete wall is 8 inches thick or two inches thick, proper vibration, a good mix design (preferably 3/8 inch stone) and following simple Concrete 101 time tested guidelines, the result will be a concrete wall that is free from honeycomb and voids.

Any ICF wall system should be poured in no more than two foot lifts, and no more than four feet an hour. There is no way a crew can keep up and properly vibrate any type of wall system, if these heights are exceeded. Because of the close proximity of the webs and the rebar, not vibrated properly will result in a high chance of voids and honeycomb to form in the concrete wall.  Combined with the shifting of the blocks and the unsupported planes around them, water penetration could occur.

A good way to check where the water is coming in thru your ICF foundation, or any foundation for that matter, is to dig down one foot below the waterproofing level, along the wall that is leaking. This should not be far, as most foundations are waterproofed to just under the sod level.

Then take a garden hose and fill this trench with water, to four inches below the top of the waterproofing, for a minimum of twenty minutes. If there is no water coming in your basement, then you will know that it is not leaking below the point that you have water tested.

You then repeat this procedure, filling the trench, with water, to just above the waterproofing. If it leaks, you will know the water is coming in from over top of the top of the water proofing and not thru the waterproofing.

If it still doesn’t leak, repeat the procedure by spraying the foundation heavily with water, from just below the top of the foundation, or the first pour level, if you have an ICF home that has walls above the basement level.

Continue this method of testing, stopping at the underside of windows, top of windows and roof line.

If it still doesn’t leak then go on the roof and flood it in with water in the same systematic manner.

By testing this way you can eliminate, systematically, what part of your house the water is coming in from.

Whether it is from your garden hose or the rain, you should be able to recreate the scenario of how the water is getting in your basement.

Using a vertical ICF wall system such as the Hobbs system significantly reduces water penetration points where water can find a clear path in the house, simply by the vertical ICF design itself.

But improper concrete pour techniques, combined with a poorly installed waterproofing system, are a recipe for water problems in any poured concrete wall structure whether it be in upstate NY or anywhere else in North America.

 

All good points, with a few caveats. You are speaking about traditional ICF systems, so you may not know that the steel reinforced Polycrete System can be poured in 10 foot lifts using 5/8 aggregate. That's because the .16" steel cross ties do not impede the flow of the concrete and the welded steel mesh within the foam panel allows you to vibrate all you want with no chance of blow out. That's right, no chance of blow out. Also, since each form is 2 ft x 8 ft and does not have an exposed fastening system there are minimal opportunities for water infiltration.

HJoeseph,

I thought that Kentucky was a hotbed for ICF construction, especially since they are building nearly every school building out of ICF and they are about to open the largest ICF project in the US (Warren Co Middle and High school). They are also opening the 1st net zero energy school in the US (Richardsville) in about a month, so that should get some positive press. I digress...

I have a question about your statement, "Using a vertical ICF wall system such as the Hobbs system significantly reduces water penetration points where water can find a clear path in the house, simply by the vertical ICF design itself." How exactly were you able to come to that conclusion and can you provide independent documentation that supports that position?

I must say (depending on the block, but most I think of applies), the argument of weakened joints or seams in a traditional ICF block has no merit at all.

You also indicate that pours should not have lifts over 2 feet per pass nor over 4 feet per hour, but many rush the job, trying to reduce cost by way of labor rates or pump truck costs. I find this point to be interesting as well, how do you define many installers and how did you find that statistic? It is my experience and opinion that if you have a contractor that know what they are doing, they will pour the wall within certain tolerances to ensure proper consolidation and minimal risks of a blowout.

I simply found the blanked statements to be a little over the top and without proper factual back up.

Forgive me, I have had a rough day!

ABAA (Air Barrier Association of America) also has concerns about weakened joints and small blocks. Their other concern is with regard to those systems that have exposed plastic studs that are an integral component of the cross tie system. Since concrete does not adhere to the plastic cross ties, there are likely to be voids along the ties. Systems that include exposed plastic studs are the biggest problem, as the voids can allow infiltration of air and water as well. Even if the studs are not exposed, EPS breathes and will allow air infiltration along the plastic ties. That's why you should use an ICF with steel ties -- the concrete bonds quite well with steel and eliminates the possibility of those voids.

I was unaware of the Air Barrier Assocation of America, but thanks for the heads up on them.

Perhaps the EPS breathes, but that would then apply to all ICF block, which is one reason that a bituthene type covering is required to be applied on the exterior surface of an ICF block. That and protection from the backfill with a platon type system (or others people have found), coupled with proper backfill and drainage you shouldn't have a problem right?

Prescriptive method for ICF construction has provisions for proper water proofing as do the other below grade systems (block, poured wall, etc). I would think that Polycrete and Hobbs have the same thing, which if done properly you should have no problem with the keeping the below grade application dry.

Again, I don't see the relevance of the weakened joints at the "seams". Most studies I've seen indicate that concrete in an ICF wall cures out at a higher strength than normal because it of its curing environment. I just didn't think that arguement is one that has been that strong. We could of course go back to the good ole' argument of R-value though!

Ren, I'm with you on the seams! It's the ABAA that has the problem with seams, not me. According to the ABAA, the concrete is the air barrier, and as long as you have a good solid concrete wall with no voids, you have a perfect air barrier. Check them out www.airbarrier.org.

I have never heard of them before last week, but a large influential architectural firm that you are familiar with told me that they are now standardizing on ABAA approved air barriers on all new buildings. So we called ABAA and are working with them to get a white paper on ICFs as air barriers. Something the ICFA should be doing I would think.

This is what I love about this site.

Good Day renangle.

I am sure that your information regarding Kentucky is accurate, even though you don’t give a source for your information. My source came from the Wisconsin Ready Mix Association website.  I probably should have said, ICF’s used in residential construction, as this is what they reference. I was replying to a homeowner and never thought to say residential construction.

A typical ICF block is approx. 4 feet long by 16 inches high. They are typically stacked together. Water is lazy; it always finds the least path of resistance.  I understand that when screwing on bracing to a typical ICF block you must position the screw in the slot so that there is room for movement. This movement comes from the blocks and their horizontal seems. This is not the case in a vertical ICF system such as Hobbs. Although the foam is not waterproof, it still acts as a barrier to the movement of water. If it can’t find a seam it will look for some other easy path to flow. As water cannot jump seams it will follow the foam. Just take a hose and spray an ICF block wall with water and watch the water flow. Then if you have an opportunity, do this to a vertical ICF system such as Hobbs. This result will speak a thousand words.

In Canada before an ICF block can be used, it must first have a CCMC number. When you look up any of the ICF block systems that have CCMC approvals, the ICF block manufacturer must state the pour rates.

In all of the approvals that I have read ( and I have read basically all of them) , the block manufactures all state a pour rate of 4 ft. per hour plus or minus depending on temperature.

This being the case, why would you fill up the forms four feet high right away with concrete?  And if you do this, are you saying that the vibrator is being dropped into the concrete to a depth of four feet deep and then pulled all the way out every 16 inches to 24 inches apart. I don’t think so!

The beauty of ICF construction is also its curse. In a typical RCF pour, you must strip the forms, in ICF construction you don’t. In RCF the truth is exposed as regards to honeycombing and voids when you remove the forms and expose the concrete. Since this is not an option with ICF’s, only good construction practices will avoid this problem. Pouring concrete lifts higher than two feet at a time and ignoring the manufactures pour rates is not in my opinion, good construction practice.

 If there was a blowout, resulting in an accident where someone is hurt. An investigation usually follows as to why someone was injured. If it is found that the contractor exceeded the recommended pour rates, then the general contractor, which would be the homeowner, if he is building the house himself, would be held responsible for any monetary penalties. Not the manufacturer.

The first thing the ICF manufacturer will say, is did they exceed the recommended pour rate?

Four feet per hour has no bearing on the real world. Polycrete's CYA rate is 4 foot lifts, and a maximum of 8 foot drop. Although if you look at the ACI specs, I think they say you can drop something crazy like 30 feet.There is a widespread myth that the long drop can cause the aggregate to separate, but there's no evidence to support that. Over-vibrating is the demon there. But over-vibrating is not a problem for most ICFs. With typical ICFs, the long drop just causes blow outs.

I cannot believe that these statements are coming from a manufactures representative.

Just for clarification, what areas of North America do you consider being in the real world?

I am not an engineer, but I do believe that you have left out one small detail when you say that concrete can be dropped thirty feet without segregation. That is the term “Free Fall”. This in my world means concrete that is dropped undisturbed.

It cannot hit the side of the forms, reinforcement rods or ties, or anything else for that matter that will cause it to segregate while it is falling. Thus the term free-fall.

This is no myth!

These same ACI guidelines limit the height of the pour rates allowed into formwork that is internally vibrated based on the lateral pressure that the forms can withstand. Which for a typical ICF is 4 ft plus or minus per hour depending on the temperature.

When concrete is placed in a form, it produces a hydrostatic pressure that acts laterally on the forms. By slowing the rate of the pour as to not exceed the lateral pressure that the forms can withstand, the concrete at the bottom of the forms begins to set or harden, and the lateral pressure is reduced allowing you to continue pouring.

I will agree with you when you say that long drops can cause blowouts. That is why I always recommend that you start your pours at window openings so the drop is not so far and then proceed from there.

 

Real World.

Hey Joe,

I guess I'll back up my findings for what has been done in Kentucky, though I am a little surprised that you hadn't heard about it.

Alvaton Elementary School article http://www.icfmag.com/builder_awards/2007/Heavy_Commercial_01.html
Alvaton's Energy Report http://www.energy.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/7DC0F91E-7039-49DD-A789-7413CC09123E/0/AlvatonSEPOct07R76.pdf

Plano Elementary School article http://www.hpbmagazine.org/images/stories/articles/Fall-2009-Plano-Elementary-School.pdf
Plano Energy Report http://www.energy.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/2139135C-0AAB-4C7C-A8C8-E23D07563130/0/planoes.pdf

Richardsville Elementary (net zero) article (this one is really good)
http://www.greenrightnow.com/kabc/2009/06/22/schools-go-net-zero-in-kentucky-and-win-national-award/

Elrod Elementary School article http://www.allbusiness.com/energy-utilities/renewable-energy-solar/14503246-1.html

Granted Plano isn't ICF, they wanted to make a few changes after Alvaton was build, but as you will see they quickly went back to ICF.

With a tradition ICF, you screw the brace into the web to stabilize it to a certain degree, but also to use the turnbuckle system to ensure a straight wall. You could say that your's doesn't need to have that, but what happens IF it needs a little straightening.

As for the blowout and possible injuries, you are right they can occur, however I've never seen an injury on a blowout. The same could be said for the bracing system. In your video on your website the contractors don't put up a railing behind the walk boards. If they were to fall off (especially on a commercial job) that could become an OSHA issue/saftey issue, where liability to the GC could come into play.

Joseph, Polycrete Big Block withstands 1,600 lbs per square foot of lateral pressure. Believe it.

Just to clarify. Yes the drop height is a myth and not an issue. Please don't make me dig up the report. However, the 4' per hour is not a myth and is ACI. The reason for 4' per hour has nothing to do with blowouts it's all about proper consolidation. You can fill Nudura or perhaps a few other ICFs all the way up in one pass if you were so inclined. But you would be side stepping the code and you would not be able to properly consolidate (vibrate) the concrete. And even if you could (which I doubt) code says 4' per hour. Regards.

Alleluia Bruce.

 

I have no doubt that it does!

I am not saying that you cannot pour concrete into an ICF form at 4 ft. depths. What I am asking is, why?

The PCA uses the term “zone of influence” when it talks about the area of concrete consolidation that occurs with a vibrator.

 A typical ¾” diameter head ICF concrete vibrator ,has a “radius of action” of 3 inches in a typical concrete mix.( 5” slump) in a 6 inch wall cavity. The higher the slump, the greater the zone of influence. In other words the zone of influence that this vibrator has on the consolidation of concrete is 3 inches from the center of the vibrator shaft in a typical 5” slump mix.

In my opinion, the main problem areas where voids and honeycombing occur are around the ties which are spaced typically at 6 to 8 inches apart in a typical ICF block foundation, lintels corners and around and openings or inserts.

In theory then, the vibrator should be placed into the concrete, at every tie location and at least 6 inches into the previous lift of concrete to achieve a proper consolidation and a wall free of voids and honeycombing.

This is much easier to achieve  on a  ICF pour ,when walls are poured in two foot lifts, rather than 4 ft. lifts. The pump keeps pumping concrete whether it is in 2 ft. or 4 ft. lifts, so it doesn’t take any longer to pour a wall in 2 ft. lifts.

If you follow the manufactures pour rate guide lines of 4 ft. per hour, with 2 ft. lifts, this type of concrete consolidation can be achieved, on a typical residential ICF pour.

Since you do not expose the concrete on an ICF wall, there is no way of telling if you have consolidated properly, unless of course it leaks or it is tested in some manner.

Take a look at the PCA website, and look at the report titled “Concrete Consolidation and the Potential for Voids in ICF Walls” and see for yourself what your wall probably looks like when the concrete is not properly consolidated.

If your goal is to give your customer, or yourself, a strong, energy efficient ICF wall, free of honeycombing and voids and structurally sound, then taking shortcuts on consolidation is not a place to save time or money.