Or their own hot wire cutter (I hear that stainless fishing leader wire works well)?

either the slump was too high

What did it test at?

Posted By jonr on 08 Jun 2011 01:42 PM
Or their own hot wire cutter (I hear that stainless fishing leader wire works well)?

either the slump was too high

What did it test at?

I didn't test it.  I asked if we needed to test it, and he said it looked good.  I ordered it at a 5.5.  The plant is 20 minutes away.  I know mid-way through the first pour that he asked for water in the mix.  I don't think they added much.  I could tell, since I was running the vibrator, that the mix got much more soupy as the day went on.  I know some guys around here don't vibrate at all and get a 6-7 slump so the mix just pours into the wall.  My pumper said that nobody vibrates internally.  That scares me a bit.  With all of those webs, a 10'6" fall, tons of rebar, I'd have to imagine it'd be hard to not get graveling, honeycombing, voids, unless the mix was really soupy.  Then, if it was, wouldn't that compromise the strength of the wall?  There'd have to be tons of shrinkage when that moisture evaporates out. 

Yes, soupy equals weak and high shrinkage. "I need to add water" may equal "it's starting to set too early". As far as I know, only expensive SCC (self consolidating concrete, not the same as just adding more water)) doesn't need vibration in forms. What does one need to agree on with a concrete supplier - slump, strength, set time, schedule and $?

Jeepster:

re: the rasp, any automotive supply shop sells rasps for taking down bodyfill they are cheap and work well I like the convex ones as they allow you to shave the foam more accurately, very handy if your block came abit proud around your window buck too
P

Auto rasp won't work. The webs have only 5/8" of foam covering them, then you will hit the webs and the poly will gum up a rasp. Use a circular saw with a reverse panel blade in it. For good measure run the blade over a brick or stone to dull it. Your going to have to lock the blade guard up, so it's not something that you'll find in the OSHA handbook. Just expose an 1/8" to 1/4" of the blade. As far as the next pour. Cut the castellations off the outside and restablesh a straight wall with a 2x4 on the outside to set the 6" wall on. Then run your subfloor out to where your interior wall should be and attach the interior of the form to sleepers screwed to the sub floor, leaving spacing for your bracing. This with the bracing screwed to the floor should prevent any movement. I always place a brace right in the corner in one direction. The corners want to kick out and have lateral pressure fron both directions. I sell Buildblock and their bracing directions call for a brace 2ft out in one direction and 3 ft in the other. This leaves the corner unprotected and needless to say sometimes the directions are wrong. You learn this the first pour when a corner moves. As far as your pour the pictures of the top of your wall shows a concaving of the top that happens when you pour a very wet slump. I would say it was at least a 8. Next pour you tell each driver what slump you want and don't let some Bozo who clearly didn't have a clue determine the slump. AS far as the vibrator causing any problems, dindn't happen. I've written this before, a 1" vibrator is worthless for icf's or any other pour unless it's a 6" sonotube. From the Oztec website a 1" vibrator has an area of influence of 4". Meaning in a 8" form it won't even vibrate the concrete on the outside of the form. People use them because they won't cause trouble and it makes it look like they are actually vibrating something. Also from the Oztec website, the overlap of the drops for the 1"vibrataor head is 6". Meaning for people in Bleecker, you have to drop the head in every 6" to properly vibrate the concrete. Also from the same website the company says that with a 1" head you can properly vibrate up to 2 yds of concrete per hour. Anyone pouring icf's at 2 yds per hour.

I'm sorry I was wrong about the compaction rate for a 1" head vibrator. It is 2-4 yards of concrete per hour. Wow that actually doubles the rate that you can safely consolidate concrete in an icf wall. So lets see if you pour a icf wall with a total of 29 yards of concrete like I did last week and used a 1" vibrator to thoughly vibrate all the concrete it would have taken 7 1/4 hrs to be successfull. Or you can do like this poor gentlemens' rep. did and pour a 8 slump or higher and just forget the vibrator.

... Or you can use a big strong ICF that will stand up to at least 1,600 lbs of lateral pressure, pour your 8 foot lifts and vibrate it all you need.

Bruce, You sound like an ass. The damage is already done. Your block sucks, especially for residential, and you do not work with do it yourselfers. The guy "helping" him obviously did not know what he was doing and you will have poor results with any block when not done correctly. Give it a rest.

Quakie, I understand your frustration, but I think you don't understand what's going on here. Smartwall's post was about vibrating an ICF wall. If you want to be able to vibrate with impunity, you need a beefier block. Now, while you may not realize it, for everyone who posts here, there are dozens who just read in hopes of learning something. That's who I write for. I'm sorry you don't like the Polycrete products, but if you tried actually using them, you'd have a different opinion. I'm happy to hear complaints from actual Polycrete installers, but if you're just basing your opinions on a picture and a guess, you're off base.

Even with a stronger block, sounds like either moderate weather or retarders are needed to fully vibrate correctly.

You can vibrate the crap out of Polycrete Big Block, you can't hurt it with a vibrator. You can damage the concrete, but not the ICF. And you don't need pea gravel, either. For safe lift heights, you need to know the lateral pressure that your formwork is designed for, the outside air temp, and then consult the ACI tables.

Brucie, not frustrated....disgusted perhaps. You shamelessly push your crude block and your constant jabs at the industry do nothing to cast a positive light on what you are trying to sell. I have seen your block in person....not impressed. Your claim to fame is how much abuse your form can take. Congrats! I will use a block that is able to be used in several different applications easily and without difficulty. We internally vibrate all of our pours. The old polysteel flat wall form was strong as hell and I have never seen one blow or even bulge, but even with factory corners it was not reverseable and having to tie all of the rebar is a pain. You have a folding version of an outdated block. Congrats.

7 slump so the mix just pours into the wall. My pumper said that nobody vibrates internally. That scares me a bit.

So there are lots of substandard ICF walls out there? From what I read - no more than 6.5" slump AND internal vibration. Or get rid of most of the rebar and use Helix.

use a Superplasticizer

Quakie, You have the wrong company. Polysteel is now owned by ARXX and called ARXX Steel. Polycrete is a completely different company and a completely different product. Sorry for confusing you, but it does happen more often than we'd like. As the Polysteel name gradually disappears the name confusion will too.

Many blocks can take a lot of vibration. Seven years ago I worked on a project that used Premere forms and the contractor supplied the vibrator , which turned out to have a 2.5" head. We only had one spot in a pilaster column that pushed out the wall because the vibrator wa sin a 4' wide pilaster for about 30 seconds but didn"t blow out the wall. I've used 2" on Buildblock with no problems. I read a report that Fox block was the only 8" block that passed the Canadian pressure test. As far as water reducers I started using them more in the past 3 years. You have to be careful because many will go back to the original slump after 45 minutes so I add mine on site about 10 minutes before we pump from a truck. Nothing worse than having trucks on a job bunched up with the time ticking on the load. Retarders, water reducers and Helix should all be on your list of things to concsider. Throw the pencil vibrator away. I recently sold a job from a competetor because he told the customer that you didn't have to vibrate the walls because he used a high slump {more water} mix.

use a superplasticizer

I agree, but hopefully a plasticizer is already in use to get from a ~4" slump to 6". But no doubt lots of suppliers cheap out and just add water. Typical recommendations from ICF suppliers:

Fill forms using a 4½*inch to 5*inch slump (stiff) minimum 2,500 psi concrete. Do not use a thin watery mix, as it will reduce concrete strength and increase the likelihood of concrete spills, ruptures, or floating forms due to improper installation and improper bracing...or... Your mix design should yield 3000 PSI at a designed slump of 5-1/2" to 6" to pour properly.

I'd say that a cautious builder or homeowner should insist on test cylinders and check for voids because of the "they can't see it so they will never know" factor.

Smartwall, your information on Fox Blocks being the only 8" form that passed the "Canadian Pressure test" is not only incorrect, it's ridiculous. I am happy to provide Polycrete results if you'd like to see them. Contact me offline.

Brucie, I know it is difficult for you.I don't know if its a.d.d. or just plain ole stupidity but please take a moment and reread my post. I said the "old" polysteel back when Pat Murphy ran it out of New Mexico before Arxx bought it. I have not dealt with them since they were bought out and the name was changed. Im fully aware that your's is a completely different block. I was simply comparing your block to a better old style block that is outdated. I am sorry if YOU WERE CONFUSED. I am not going to continue this with you as your are now just being childish as you usually get when challenged.

Sorry, Quake. Our role on this forum is to correct the myths, misinformation and misunderstandings about advances in the industry that periodically crop up here by supplying facts. It's too bad you feel defensive. Your opinion is important, but we find it's best to support an opinion with proven facts or input based on personal experience.

I assume that you haven't used the Big Block, since you don't seem to understand the system. We run into this from time to time, because our claims may seem a little over the top to people who are used to working with the smaller, less robust ICFs. But we are happy to supply you with a sample if you provide your mailing address. Cheers.