I own several different brace sizes and when possible we install the 2x ledger with anchor bolts prior to pour, above the brace. This saves time and is the least expensive route to hang your ledger board. It also helps keep the wall straight and if you do your layout and place your hangers prior to placement, you can avoid anchor bolts right behind the floor joist.

We also leave the bracing up and use it instead of ladders to place the joists, another time saver! and much safer to work off of.

And if you get really good, you can have the floor in place, subfloor and all prior to pour, makes for a nice big walking surface during the pour!!

Posted By lzerarc on 18 Mar 2012 10:51 PM
what about if using vertical forms?.....

If your braces are vertical it would not matter. Chris's method would work, but we have just 10,12 and 15 foot braces. And we usually don't do the framing.

Chris
thats a good idea...leaving the bracing up for installing the floor structure. My braces will be built with 2x material, so we can make them whatever height they need to be to fit below the 2x if required, especially since it will be at the very top of the wall. I asked about vertical forms because they require a whaler at the top anyway, and one suggestion I read was to put a 2nd one at the base and then it will fur out the bracing to clear/be on the front of the ledger. I plan to use 9' precut studs as my verticals and reuse to frame the interior walls.

Just make sure your ledger is not resting on the wall brace, if the wall compresses for any reason this will cause the wall to tilt out and you will never get it back. Also, double nut your anchor bolts, front and back to prevent them from pushing out when concrete is place, they become solid before the concrete is poured. As well after you drill the rim for the anchor bolts, on the back side place peel and stick, this way concrete has separation from the wood.

Posted By Chris Johnson on 19 Mar 2012 09:31 AM
Just make sure your ledger is not resting on the wall brace, if the wall compresses for any reason this will cause the wall to tilt out and you will never get it back. Also, double nut your anchor bolts, front and back to prevent them from pushing out when concrete is place, they become solid before the concrete is poured. As well after you drill the rim for the anchor bolts, on the back side place peel and stick, this way concrete has separation from the wood.

I think Chris method is the best. By all means put the floor in place prior to pouring. As Chris mentioned it makes an easy pour platform and holds the building square. We differ somewhat in that we leave the full icf in place and use anchor bolts with a 2" x 1/4" by the thickness of the ICF steel block weld to the anchor. This requires a 1/4" slit in the ICF as well as the 1/2" hold for the anchor bolt. After the pour and after 28 days (or what ever time it takes to hit design strength) we tighten the anchor bolts to trap the ledger between the nut and the pc of metal. This gives you full bearing and prevents the compression of the foam.

By all means put the floor in place prior to pouring. As Chris mentioned it makes an easy pour platform and holds the building square.

How exactly would this be done?  Would you build a temporary wall along the exterior ICF walls to support the floor joists and subfloor? 

Posted By jeepster on 20 Mar 2012 11:14 PM

By all means put the floor in place prior to pouring. As Chris mentioned it makes an easy pour platform and holds the building square.

How exactly would this be done?  Would you build a temporary wall along the exterior ICF walls to support the floor joists and subfloor? 

The one I was involved in, we did have temp stud wall around the perimeter. Also it had the ICFVL which resulted in a bump at each one because of the thickness of the steel pieces of the ICFVL. I doubt I would do it again.

FBBP,
I don't follow your method. Can you elaborate?

Posted By ICFconstruction on 20 Mar 2012 11:22 PM
FBBP,
I don't follow your method. Can you elaborate?

Brad - we take a regular anchor bolt and weld a 2x2.5x.25 piece of metal to it. Our braces are 9' and 8' in height depending on the floor to ceiling height we need. Build the wall as per normal with the appropriate braces and aded a 1x on top of the strong back. Just a scrap piece. Set the ledger (usually lvl) on top of the strongback and 1x and drill the appropriate size hole for the anchor bolts thru the ledger and the foam. Remove the ledger and cut slots down from the hole for the steel pieces. Insert the anchors with the welded plates into the ledger holes and insert the whole assembly into the the icf wall resting on the 1x's. We normally tie the anchor bolts in the wall to a horizontal rebar. (you can put your hangers on the ledger when it is on the ground to save some trouble). Build the floor structure and sheath it. You now have a solid floor to walk on and if you did things right the building is stable and square and just missing a few cubic yards of concrete. Pour the walls as per normal. Knock out the 1Xs and remove the strong backs as you normally would. After the concrete has cured you tighten the anchor bolts and you have a solid wall/floor assembly that the other guys can just dream about! 'course at this point you should continue with the main floor with ICF and then put on the roof. No point in doing half a job, right?

Sounds slick. Sounds strong. But what about engineering to back it up? Without searching, I don't think IRC covers this and I haven't seen that connection type in a manufacturers engineering.

so the floor structure is supported by only the scrap nailer screwed to the plastic studs in the ICF?

Posted By lzerarc on 21 Mar 2012 08:53 AM
so the floor structure is supported by only the scrap nailer screwed to the plastic studs in the ICF?

No, the anchor bolts do. If I understand correctly the steel plates transition the download as it passes through the EPS. But what about capacity, what about lateral forces?

Posted By lzerarc on 21 Mar 2012 08:53 AM
so the floor structure is supported by only the scrap nailer screwed to the plastic studs in the ICF?

Go to http://www.integraspec.com/pdf/Installation_Manual_V8.0.pdf than to section 14.1 for a picture.

Posted By ICFconstruction on 21 Mar 2012 08:36 AM
Sounds slick. Sounds strong. But what about engineering to back it up? Without searching, I don't think IRC covers this and I haven't seen that connection type in a manufacturers engineering.

As the metal piece removes the bending action of the anchor bolt as it passes thru the foam, you are back to the shear values of the anchor bolt. Another way to do this is to use a 2x2x.25" piece of metal and let the bolt go thru it. Bigger hole more heat loss but quite effective if you need to attach the ledger to a previously pour wall. Just use your favorite drill in anchor, chip out the 2x2 of foam and slide the metal over the bolt to prevent the bending of the bolt and the compression of the foam.

Posted By lzerarc on 21 Mar 2012 08:53 AM
so the floor structure is supported by only the scrap nailer screwed to the plastic studs in the ICF?

I think this comment was referring to supporting the floor BEFORE concrete is poured, right?  Anyway, it sounds like he's transferring the subfloor load through the LVL, scrap 1x, strongback, then the top of the brace.

I would just fear a collapse from high winds/storm, etc.  I doubt that would happen, but it could kill someone if it did.

The subloor/rim joist needs support prior to pour, I use a 2x about every 10' around the perimeter, to go from the underside of rim to top of footing, remember to leave a 1/4-3/8" gap and use a shim shingle in here, this will allow for any compression during the pour and any adjustment space needed.

Jeepster is correct, referring to support prior to the pour.
Here is my question about the possible compression- wouldnt you want the floor to remain braced at the correct height to prevent the floor from compressing/lowering with the block?

Posted By lzerarc on 22 Mar 2012 09:24 AM
Jeepster is correct, referring to support prior to the pour.
Here is my question about the possible compression- wouldn't you want the floor to remain braced at the correct height to prevent the floor from compressing/lowering with the block?

If you didn't allow the rim to settle or compress with the ICF wall, the wall would bow. Another advantage to the ICFVL, you can adjust for height, post-pour.

I'm not saying the block I prefer is the only but why not use a block that does not compress?

Because all blocks can have some compression, even the ones with full height webs. There are many factors which can cause/affect compression, i.e. rebar quantity, how the wall is poured, etc.