Hi,

I am really curious if anyone has information/experience working with HercuWall?  I am considering using this system but haven't located anyone that has used it.  I like the idea that the wall is prefabricated according to my prints; all of the windows and doors are already cut out leaving less waste. 

I spoke with one of the reps that claims that this product uses 60%-70% less concrete and rebar; can anyone verify this?  My thought is that a product that uses less concrete and/or rebar would be less structurally sound???  This may just be my dumb logic at work here.

Thanks for ANY and ALL insight...

Rainman

It looks like a modified grid type ICF design with some steel reinforcement channels.

It looks better than a typical waffle grid ICF but I am old school and like a fully monolithic 6" concrete wall reinforced with rebar. It's a proven method that works. These hybrid systems are always lacking in-depth studies and widespread usage.

As far as cost savings go. 3,000 square feet of wall space with a 6" ICF core requires 55 yards of concrete to fill the 6" cavity.
55 yards x $90 a yard = $4,950 concrete cost

18" o.c. horizontal and 16" o.c. vertical #4 commercial grade rebar (grade 60 or better) rebar is around $1,200 per ton. A 3,000 sqft wall area house will usually use around 1 - 1.5 tons of rebar.

In reality concrete is not that expensive and the same for rebar. You can save on labor costs to bend and install the rebar but what are the costs for the HercuWall ICF system?

Hey Lbear...

First off...thanks for the information.

Sorry for all of this information below but I am really trying to determine if this product is the "REAL DEAL" because if it can cut my concrete by 60% I will do all of my interior walls with this product as well.  Concrete in my area is well over $100 per yard so this could save me THOUSANDS....and THOUSANDS...and, well you get it.

I am currently waiting on the final quote for the complete system.  Our home will be 6894 sqft which includes 3447 sqft basement and 3447 main level.  After speaking with the HercuWall distributor, he did inform me that he can do all of my walls and hambro floor system for a lesser price of another block system without floor system that I am looking at.   The units are pre-engineered and are 9" thick which includes 5" of concrete. 

Description                             Wood Frame                  Concrete Block                   ICF                     HercuWall®
Hurricane Tested                     Prescriptive                     Prescriptive                         Prescriptive         YES*
Sound Barrier                          Low                                 Medium                               High                     High
Moisture Infiltration                 WRB Required                 Absorbs Moisture                WRB Required      Fully Waterproof**
Mildew Resistance                   No                                   No                                       Yes                       Yes
Termite Resistance                  No                                   Yes                                      Yes                       Yes
Labor Requirement                 Skilled Trade                    Skilled Trade                       Skilled Trade         Unskilled Labor
Insulation R‐Value                  R‐11                                 R‐7                                      R‐24                      R‐33
Maintenance Free                   No                                    No                                       Yes                        Yes
*Miami‐Dade County, Florida, NOA No. 12‐0607.03. Expiration Date: November 8, 2017
**ASTM E331 Tested

This is some of what I've found on this product:
Miami Dade County HVHZ (high velocity hurricane zone) acceptance is generally considered the most rigorous of all product testing and approvals in the building materials realm.  HercuWall® has obtained the Miami Dade County, Florida, NOA No. 12-0607.03. Expiration date: November 8, 2017 and Florida Product Approval. 

Last thing:
SUCCESFULLY TESTED FOR:
   1. Air Infiltration, per FBC, TAS 202-94
   2. Uniform Static Air Pressure Loading per FBC TAS 202-94
   3. Water Resistance, per FBC TAS 202-94
   4. Large Missile Impact per FBC, TAS 203-94
   5. Cyclic Wind Pressure Loading per FBC, TAS 203-94

NOW...ALL of this sounds great and since I live in a tornado area, 10 in the past week alone.  It seems that ALL ICF manufacturers/suppliers claim the same stuff and all of them seem to launch 2x4s into their product which looks cool to guys like me BUT...

IS THIS PRODUCT FOR REAL?

Thanks again...
Rainman

Posted By rainman on 17 May 2013 10:55 PM
Hey Lbear...

First off...thanks for the information.

Sorry for all of this information below but I am really trying to determine if this product is the "REAL DEAL" because if it can cut my concrete by 60% I will do all of my interior walls with this product as well.  Concrete in my area is well over $100 per yard so this could save me THOUSANDS....and THOUSANDS...and, well you get it.

I am currently waiting on the final quote for the complete system.  Our home will be 6894 sqft which includes 3447 sqft basement and 3447 main level.  After speaking with the HercuWall distributor, he did inform me that he can do all of my walls and hambro floor system for a lesser price of another block system without floor system that I am looking at.   The units are pre-engineered and are 9" thick which includes 5" of concrete. 



NOW...ALL of this sounds great and since I live in a tornado area, 10 in the past week alone.  It seems that ALL ICF manufacturers/suppliers claim the same stuff and all of them seem to launch 2x4s into their product which looks cool to guys like me BUT...

Thanks again...
Rainman

The "unskilled labor" is a little fishy. Even with the HercuWall system you will have to get a concrete truck and pumper, it's not a Home Depot 80LB bag of concrete and mixer job. Also, how do you run electrical and plumbing since you will be hitting steel every couple of inches as the steel reinforcement is at every panel joint? Cutting foam is easy but cutting steel every couple of inches will drive your plumber and electrician insane and they will reflect that cost in their bill to you.

Remember, "distributors" are salesmen first and while there is nothing wrong with that, it is good to remember that to keep things in perspective. The main purpose is to sell their product. They will promise you a lot of things but when it comes down to the actual project taking place, "hidden" costs start to emerge.

With the HercuWall system, there will be areas with NO concrete as they are fully foam. If a projectile hits the foam area it will NOT be as strong as a solid core concrete wall.

I assume the home you are building is in Florida? Remember there will be shipping costs as the product is coming from Arizona and you are looking at a couple of fully loaded semi-trucks.

The HercuWall company is based in Arizona and they were started in 2008 and their website page hasn't been updated since 2009. That makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Also a Google search doesn't come up with much except advertising for the company. No 3rd party reviews on it. I even checked with Green Building Advisor and there is NO MENTION of it whatsoever and they pretty much comment on ALL building systems.


I will let others chime in if they have used HercuWall but I haven't heard of anyone ever using it and the company is based here in Arizona.

I was able to find this:



Posted By dmaceld on 05 Nov 2009 11:11 PM
Sask, thanks for the compliment. Yeah, my background is mechanical engineering although I haven't been deeply involved enough in any particular aspect of it to lay claim to being a PE.

Have you looked closely at the photo gallery on the Hercuwall web site? As you know, there's no technical info published there. I just spent time looking at all the photos and have decided I can't garner enough info to justify doing a heat transfer estimate through their wall. Besides, after looking at it closely they do not have steel going all the way from one side to the other, which lessens the heat conductance somewhat. But that also raises concerns about their design.

If you look really close you'll see their walls are a post and beam concrete structure. This means you've got all the potential issues of concrete flow and voids to deal with with that kind of pour. Concrete has to flow into all the beam sections from the columns. Get into to much of a rush and I can see air being trapped in the beam sections causing voids in the concrete in them. You'd have to be extremely careful to have the right slump to assure complete flow. Of course, you do use less concrete so that is a plus.

But what concerns me most is the absence of any solid material connecting the inner and outer panels together, other than foam. It looks like the panels are glued to the inner web foam. I wonder just how structurally sound that system is when you've got 8 or 10, or even 12 ft of concrete pressure against the panels. The way the rebar hooks in the steel are designed the horizontal rebars don't provide any interconnection between the inner and outer panels.

The wall sections appear to be hand assembled in the factory. When you look at all the steel they use, and all the manual labor they use, to fabricate the wall sections and compare that to the typical ICF block which has plastic webs and is molded by machine, you have got to really wonder about the cost compared to typical ICF blocks. And then there's that channel they use on the footer. It has to be punched to go over the dowels which means time is expended in either getting all the dowels in exactly the right spot, or in making sure the holes get punched in the right spot to fit the dowels.

I don't know. I've built only one house, and have experience with only Buildblock, so I'm no ICF expert, but I sure would be hesitant to use the Hercuwall system.

Hey Lbear,

My project is located in the North Texas region so the shipping cost should be decent.

I found the "unskilled labor" part to be as you put it "fishy" BUT I will say that company reps and installers have tried selling me on Nudura, TF, Hobbs, etc...on the same exact pitch of being a "DIY" type of project during my process of trying to find the right system for my building project.  I do understand that regardless of the product I use that I will need a concrete truck (many of them) and a pump truck as well as the fact that this is not a 100% "DIY" type of project.  Just like dealing with any subcontractor, I will require EVERYTHING to be put in writing in the form of a contract which will hopefully protect me and the supplier. 

With regards to the plumbing, HVAC and electrical...this will all be done from the basement level and I will have to cut/notch the metal in very few locations but the desired locations that require it will be minimal.

I am going to question the following:
"With the HercuWall system, there will be areas with NO concrete as they are fully foam. If a projectile hits the foam area it will NOT be as strong as a solid core concrete wall."

I just figure the lack of the 3rd party reviews is simply based on lack of users outside of the two home builders.  I know there is a build taking place soon which will be located in Galveston, TX that I plan on watching.

I will certainly update with my observations and will take plenty of pictures.

Thanks again Lbear; you bring up very good points which is why I wanted to post my original question.

Thanks,
Mike

Hey Lbear,

I did send an email to the HercuWall distributor and asked for clarification on many of those points.  As soon as I get a response I will post it. 

Thanks for your input; I like having additional input in case I lose focus.

Mike

Posted By rainman on 18 May 2013 07:18 PM
Hey Lbear,


I am going to question the following:
"With the HercuWall system, there will be areas with NO concrete as they are fully foam. If a projectile hits the foam area it will NOT be as strong as a solid core concrete wall."


Thanks,
Mike

There is no way around that fact. They can say all they want but in the end the wall is not a solid monolithic concrete structure when you use their system. There will be areas of just foam without any concrete. It's part of their design and they will spin it all different ways but the fact is that it's a waffle grid or post and beam type of system. Those types of systems are inferior to a solid 6" reinforced concrete wall like found in a typical ICF wall.

If you are doing concrete partly as tornado protection, I would not use a system like HercuWall.

Good info and much appreciated. The thing that got my attention with this system was the amount of required concrete. I haven't seen another system that requires less concrete. If you know of one please let me know. Thanks again Lbear. Mike

Posted By rainman on 19 May 2013 05:49 PM
Good info and much appreciated. The thing that got my attention with this system was the amount of required concrete. I haven't seen another system that requires less concrete. If you know of one please let me know. Thanks again Lbear. Mike

Why are you looking for systems that require very little concrete? What are you trying to achieve?

Using monolithic concrete as your wall system is done primarily for its strength, severe weather protection, fire resistance, insect and rodent deterrent and thermal mass. In an ICF wall the 5"+ of total foam gives you the  R-Value. The 6"+ of concrete gives you the monolithic concrete strength and thermal mass.

You are looking for a system like HercuWall but it diminishes the concrete factor, so in essence you are losing the strength, severe weather protection, fire resistance and thermal mass. You might as well go back to a 2x6 wood/stick frame home and fill the wall with cellulose. It's much more DIY friendly to frame lumber.

The reason for looking at systems requiring less concrete is simply because I have spoken with several ICF companies and most require very different amounts of concrete and basically I am looking for a system that is somewhat easy to assemble BUT requires the least amount of concrete possible.  Where I am building is in the country and lumber is expensive as well as skilled labor to frame SO we have opted for ICF because the product can be assembled by very few skilled tradesmen lowering my labor cost by reducing the number of laborers and drastically reducing my overall build time.  Any additional benefits gained are merely an added bonus.  My home will not be located in a hurricane area but we do get some tornado activity so additional strength would be a very welcome bonus.

Now for my 20 (4 questions) question round...?
What ICF product did you use for your home if you don't mind me asking? 
How many sqft? 
How long did it take? 
Did you do the ICF work or farm it out?

Now for my rant on how MY PERSONAL experience has been so far...
My biggest issue with ICF is not the technology because I think it sounds AWESOME...my biggest issue has been trying to shovel through all of the minutia because all of the manufacturers/distributors I've spoken with have only told me how horrible the "other guys" system is and NOT why his system is superior.  Your suggestion to build a stick frame home is something that I am seriously contemplating at this time because the ICF process in general has been less than straight forward not to mention that I just don't enjoy dealing with so many "used car" style of distributors that just want a quick paycheck and could really care less if your (my families) home is what we wanted.

Thanks again Lbear for all of your input be it what I want to hear or not.

Much appreciated and have a great MONDAY...one day closer to Friday.

Mike

Posted By rainman on 19 May 2013 10:09 PM
The reason for looking at systems requiring less concrete is simply because I have spoken with several ICF companies and most require very different amounts of concrete and basically I am looking for a system that is somewhat easy to assemble BUT requires the least amount of concrete possible.  Where I am building is in the country and lumber is expensive as well as skilled labor to frame SO we have opted for ICF because the product can be assembled by very few skilled tradesmen lowering my labor cost by reducing the number of laborers and drastically reducing my overall build time.  Any additional benefits gained are merely an added bonus.  My home will not be located in a hurricane area but we do get some tornado activity so additional strength would be a very welcome bonus.

Now for my 20 (4 questions) question round...?
What ICF product did you use for your home if you don't mind me asking? 
How many sqft? 
How long did it take? 
Did you do the ICF work or farm it out?

Now for my rant on how MY PERSONAL experience has been so far...
My biggest issue with ICF is not the technology because I think it sounds AWESOME...my biggest issue has been trying to shovel through all of the minutia because all of the manufacturers/distributors I've spoken with have only told me how horrible the "other guys" system is and NOT why his system is superior.  Your suggestion to build a stick frame home is something that I am seriously contemplating at this time because the ICF process in general has been less than straight forward not to mention that I just don't enjoy dealing with so many "used car" style of distributors that just want a quick paycheck and could really care less if your (my families) home is what we wanted.

Thanks again Lbear for all of your input be it what I want to hear or not.

Much appreciated and have a great MONDAY...one day closer to Friday.

Mike

Here is my take on it. If you want a true 100% hands-on, weekend warrior, DIY system. Wood frame is the most forgiving and "easiest" to do. If you are set on a concrete wall system. I don't believe they are DIY but I don't know your level of expertise.

As far as your questions go:
My home has not been built and is in the latter part of the design phase but I am going with an ICF wall system (Nudura) with a 6" concrete core. The 2nd floor system will be InsulDeck. It's a 2-story slab-on-grade design. The roof will be Steel SIP (12" EPS core) 5:12 pitch. The home is around 3,400 sqft. I will have the ICF and InsulDeck work done by a professional, experienced and well-seasoned ICF contractor. I would NEVER have anyone else do it because it's too complicated and there are many horror stories out there with ICF. Concrete is not forgiving and mistakes are usually permanent. You frame a wood wall incorrectly, you can always knock it down with a hammer. Concrete doesn't forgive.

My favorite ICF system is Nudura and then Fox Blocks. There are other good ones out there but those are mine. Once you get into the more obscure ICF systems, they can get less expensive but they are usually inferior and will cost you more in the long run, including more headaches.

For me, my choice in concrete/ICF was because of the area (Arizona) and the benefits of thermal mass are much higher in climates like mine. The building site has a forest fire danger and concrete is a better choice than wood frame. The area has a high termite potential, once again ICF/concrete is a better choice. Strength, a 6" concrete wall is 5x stronger than a double sheared wood frame wall and the area is a Seismic Design Category C. The area I am in has scorpions and many desert rodents. Every wood frame home built out there has problems with rodents getting into the wall cavities. They chew threw wood and get into the walls. They also can get on top of the house and chew through the wood soffits and get into the attics and walls. I've even seen wood peckers poke holes into the soffits and overhangs and then squirrels and rodents have a nice hole to crawl through. So ICF/concrete provides a solution to all those above problems and gives me a good R-Value for my area.

In the end whether it's wood frame or concrete, people are in the business to make a profit. A contractor I know always teases me about my choice to go with ICF. He thinks wood frame is the best system around because it's the most popular and has been around for so many years. There is nothing "wrong" with wood frame and it works in providing shelter and an energy efficient home when done properly. Like any system, there are pros and cons.

Lbear, how many icf systems have you installed?

I can comment, bc I actually have an ICF home, which I built myself, full DIY. Do you need a professional to do it? No, I do not believe so. However what you do need is lots and lots of research, video watching, discussing with pros, reps, this forum, and construction experience does help. Now, I have framed a bunch of homes, but never done an ICF. When I was researching blocks it did not take long to realize that most blocks are the same. What it really came down to is the style or system. traditional horizontal vs vertical vs a system like hercuwall. I realized vertical forms would possibly be the easiest to DIY for various reasons. I then focused on the 2 main makers, which was Hobbs and TF wall. Hobbs uses a post and beam type system with continuous top and bottom bond beams, but also has flat wall panels as well that go around windows, doors, beam bearing, or in areas where more strength is needed such as high loading or high backfill pressure. However, despite comments above, you do not need 6"+ of concrete to be termite and fire resistant. Just a couple inches will easily do the trick. The Hobbs system post and beam uses a lot less concrete, but still maintains the strength due to the tested engineering. There is no area of the wall that does not have any concrete. There are concrete posts every 16" with a 2" concrete web connecting them. Top and bottom bond beam are full 6" concrete. In the 2" areas, you have roughly 7" of EPS foam, which drives the average r value of the system up to around 28, vs traditional 2.5" blocks is lower. Now, while I used around 30-40% less concrete than a 6 or 8" core block, I did use a lot more rebar. Every 16" had a full vertical #4 or #5 bar (#5 was in the basement walls, #4 upper). Also had a #5 continuous horizontal bar at the top and bottom bond beam. I under estimated the quantity a little bit on the rebar, so this ate into my concrete savings some. However the system, in general, was very easy to install. While I have construction experience, my wife who was beside my side did not. It took her minutes to learn and lifting 10# foam panels was a lot easier for her than carry lumber or tipping walls. We got about 200 lF of wall built in about 2 days including all reinforcement. Bracing took another 2 days or so. Now I do not know how this compares to other systems since its my first and only, but there are putting up a foundation near me that is full horizontal block and it took their crew of 3 or 4 close to a week, working every day, to stack, brace and pour. Pouring took about 4 hours. Now the basement was had no issue, but the main level we had a panel blow out. I think it was just stung too hard from my help. However with a vertical form, the fix was fast and easy. We simply kept pouring and moved on and let it sit for a few minutes to firm up slightly. I then pulled the busted panel out and slide a new panel in from the top. Vibrated the concrete back down and poured. Would never know it happened. This isnt unique to Hobbs, but rather a trait of the vertical forms that I liked. It was alos a lot easier to plumb up and keep the walls nice and straight since the continuous veritical furring strips can be attached together with a strong back at the top. Something I do not like about ICF is attached of things, and you need to think ahead about layouts with things such as cabinets, bathroom, etc. The siding all gets screwed on, which really increases the time to install, not to mention the frustration level.

The average for this system is no way near R-30 as advertised. As far as using less cement , yes but in order to assure a full, wall you will need a grout mix which is more costly than a 3000 psi concrete mix. If I was going to use a vertical system I would probably use TF. I have a future project that a vertical system will be a big advantage, so I'll let you know how it turns out.

when I calculated my homes wall value, it worked out to be around r28 after taking into account the flat wall areas which is less foam (only 4" total in those areas around windows and doors). The concrete specified by the engineer was a 3000lb w/ 3/8 aggregate mix at a 5 slump. It ran me about $98/yd

I like the NUDURA system, it looks like it would be easier to use with the folding/hinged design and with the locking mechanism to prevent floating.  The cost of the system isn't bad I just don't like inflated concrete expense where I live because we only have one concrete company in our area.  Our house is 6894 sqft and has a somewhat unconventional shape.  I don't want to do the whole project myself but my family plans to be deeply involved with the stacking of the forms and running all of my own plumbing, electrical, security and telecom/data comm lines.  ALL of the concrete work will be subcontracted due to the unforgiving complexity of the material. 

With our home we will probably end up using Nudura with the distributor Cameron Ware being so close it really almost seems like a "NO BRAINER".  Our choice for ICF was for the overall savings in labor.  With ICF, Cameron has agreed to come out and show me and my trusty 10 volunteers how to stack and brace the system I can pay an ICF crew to come out and handle the pour for the basement and main level. 

I am really trying to avoid using wood construction on this project because with the increased labor and material cost.  I do not see the cost of ICF being more expensive when one factors in the the cost of a framing crew, plumber, HVAC tech, electrician and insulation guy.  With the ICF product I can avoid a framing crew completely, run my own plumbing lines and install my tankless water heaters, run all of my electrical lines including outlets and boxes with the use of a hot knife, no need to use additional insulation and I would be able to run all of my own duct work BUT would have to have an HVAC crew come in and install the HVAC units and test for leaks.

I know I make it sound easy but most of the work away from the "shell" and metal roof will be done by myself, my wife and a few close and trusted "will work for beer" friends that are in or own construction companies.  The beauty of our project is that we don't have to have it done NOW...we can take our time and do it ourselves as time/funds are available. 

So, what exactly led you to Nudura over all other ICF systems?  

Hi lzerarc,

I looked at both Hobbs and TF...

What I didn't like about HOBBS:
HOBBS: the problems that I ran into with Hobbs was that I kept being told that my quote/bid would be ready and I should have it "tomorrow" but tomorrow never came and that was back on Feb. 19, 2013 and I still don't know what my cost would have been...I was very discouraged by that because I really liked the system and would have been prepared to purchase the system that day. 

What I did like about HOBBS:
I like the fact that the system uses less concrete.  More rebar is an acceptable trade.

What I didn't like about TF:
With TF systems I spoke with a few of the reps and just got that feeling that I was buying a used car.  The system seems decent, I've never used it or any other system for that matter, but I cannot describe the feeling that I was on a car lot surrounded by salesmen in a hostile environment.

What I liked about TF:
I like the vertical system.

Mike 
 

rainman, that is too bad to hear about the service. Mine has been nothing but top notch and super responsive. May want to try contacting them again, see if its any different this time.

The waffle grid systems are becoming more and more scarce as the down sides of it are exposed. Here in Colorado there was a house in the fires that was a waffle grid ICF home, after the fire, the home was trash. The foam melted leaving a spawled mess of concrete tube looking webs. It had to be scrapped just like the wood homes, but with more of a labor cost of demo. Other solid core ICF homes fared much better.

If you want the safety of a concrete home, much like others, I am confused why less concrete is appealing to you? The thousands that you will save in concrete is most likely a small percentage of your total build cost. With solid foam the total width of the wall in that type of system, it is easy for them to take a average total wall R-Value using the 8"+ foam thickness as part of the calculation to skew their results.

I rep Quad-Lock, even if you don't use our system, look for a company that is established and selling a good quantity of product. You will find that there is a much better dealer and installer network in place to support you and help with your project. The small companies just can not offer that level of support.