nysharps
New Member
Posts:13
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| 28 May 2013 09:25 PM |
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I'm doing an ICF basement-to-roof build, and I was trying to figure out the best way to do window and door bucks. It seems that the most economical and practical solution is to use wood. But I'm worried that wood is not nearly as durable as the rest of the home. What happens if the wood develops structural problems later on (years down the line)? Is it possible to replace?
Does anybody have other non-wood solutions to the buck issue? I'm leaning away from vinyl, like the V-buck, because I've read here and other places that it's not as tough as other things (for example in high winds). But would it be possible to mitigate this issue by driving tapcons right through the V-buck and into the concrete?
What about if you don't use any bucking at all and just a removable frame and attach the window to that with tapcons? Or would that create a lot of thermal bridging?
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Midsouth ICF
New Member
Posts:65
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| 28 May 2013 10:21 PM |
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I would urge you to look at Fox Blocks "Fox Buck". It is a EPS buck that works perfectly in union with the Fox Blocks. It has a very strong plastic tie fused into it for strong window fastening. I have used Vbuck ALOT and it is easy to install but I would not trust it to screw a window too. In all reality, you are fasting a window to 1/8" of vinyl. Just a suggestion. If you would like, I can give you the contact information of a block rep I work with a lot on. Just email me at [email protected]. Hope this helps!. |
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Ryan Gunn
Owner, Midsouth ICF Builders LLC |
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Midsouth ICF
New Member
Posts:65
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| 28 May 2013 10:22 PM |
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It is also much cheaper than V-Buck. |
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Ryan Gunn
Owner, Midsouth ICF Builders LLC |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 29 May 2013 04:38 AM |
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Treated wood bucks is the most common and easiest to do. I do like the Fox Buck, it just came out a few months ago. It eliminates the wood buck and is much stronger than a vinyl buck. You then are basically anchoring into the tie, which is anchored into solid concrete.
YOU TUBE VIDEO - FOX BUCKIf you really want to get crazy, you can always use a Tapcon screw and anchor deep into the concrete. |
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insuldeckflorida
Basic Member
Posts:158
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| 29 May 2013 07:27 AM |
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what type of windows will you use?
flange, fastened to/flush with the outside of the wall? deep sills...
or fin set halfway into the opening? shallow sills.. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 29 May 2013 08:58 AM |
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But I'm worried that wood is not nearly as durable as the rest of the home No, treated wood is not as durable as the concrete, but the rest of the components, including the windows and the siding are probably not as durable as the treated wood. I wouldn't be worried about the hundred-year time frame with treated wood unless you are planning to make a mistake and put continuous moisture on your treated wood bucks. Is there some reason that treated wood is giving you a case of the worries? |
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nysharps
New Member
Posts:13
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| 29 May 2013 12:55 PM |
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ICFHybrid:
I'm just concerned about what happens if/when the wood is damaged. With the window itself, it's simple: you take it out and put in a new one. But I'm not sure how that would work with wood anchored to concrete...
I'm going to look into FoxBlocks. From some reading I've been doing, Integraspec seems to work the same way? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 29 May 2013 07:13 PM |
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But I'm not sure how that would work with wood anchored to concrete... When does the wood get damaged? You live near the freeway or something? You saw it out and put in a carefully fitted replacement well bedded to the concrete. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 29 May 2013 09:28 PM |
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One of the concerns that I have with treated wood as window and door bucks is that sometimes the wood develops problems such as warping, splitting, etc. I know the buck can be replaced but it will require some work. I think the Fox Buck would be a better choice. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Midsouth ICF
New Member
Posts:65
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| 29 May 2013 09:34 PM |
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If you would like me to get you in touch with a Fox Blocks Sales manager, send me a personal message with your email address and I will get you in touch with him. Thanks and if there is anything I can help with please don't hesitate to ask. |
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Ryan Gunn
Owner, Midsouth ICF Builders LLC |
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theInvincible
New Member
Posts:74
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| 30 May 2013 12:33 AM |
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Posted By nysharps on 28 May 2013 09:25 PM
What about if you don't use any bucking at all and just a removable frame and attach the window to that with tapcons? Or would that create a lot of thermal bridging?
I am just started to install my windows with this method.
0- some windows are build with wood. I have found non-wood windows.
1- the windows company did not install them and they did not give waranty. they are Fibergallas windows. They said that connectors twist the window frame.
2- installing 1 screw takes 5 minutes. I am using 16 screws per window.
I will see the pros and cons later. But I am happy for now. |
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FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
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| 30 May 2013 10:27 AM |
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Posted By nysharps on 29 May 2013 12:55 PM
ICFHybrid:
I'm just concerned about what happens if/when the wood is damaged. With the window itself, it's simple: you take it out and put in a new one. But I'm not sure how that would work with wood anchored to concrete...
I'm going to look into FoxBlocks. From some reading I've been doing, Integraspec seems to work the same way?
Yes IntegraSpec is the same style. The big advantage of using the foam over wood is that there is one less area of air infiltration. The concrete seals to the groves in the foam. With wood , it will always shrink and leave you with an air gap between the wood and concrete. There is ways to prevent this but the are more cumbersome than using the foam.
The other advantage of the foam is that you keep the concrete all encapsulated with foam. If you use wood or vinyl there is a reduced R-value path at your window and door jambs. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 30 May 2013 11:34 AM |
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Posted By FBBP on 30 May 2013 10:27 AM
Yes IntegraSpec is the same style. The big advantage of using the foam over wood is that there is one less area of air infiltration. The concrete seals to the groves in the foam. With wood , it will always shrink and leave you with an air gap between the wood and concrete. There is ways to prevent this but the are more cumbersome than using the foam.
The other advantage of the foam is that you keep the concrete all encapsulated with foam. If you use wood or vinyl there is a reduced R-value path at your window and door jambs.
The other advantage of the ICF foam buck is that if you are doing a stucco finish, the foam makes it easy to attach to. With a vinyl & wood buck that's not possible without more detailing work. Treated wood always seems to split and twist. It's never dimensionally stable until it has completely dried out, which can take over a year. I believe Fox has really solved the problem of those looking to keep the ICF/EPS system all the way to the window areas. It looks like a well engineered product. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 30 May 2013 01:32 PM |
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Can the Fox Buck be used with other building systems such as SCIP if the wall is the same thickness? The concrete is on the outside with SCIP systems. In the past before the chemicals were changed we used treated wood for bucks with SCIPs, but with the new treated wood I would like to find a better material for bucks. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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okicfpro
New Member
Posts:10
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| 31 May 2013 09:57 PM |
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nysharps, when we use lumber for bucks, we prefer engineered material (i.e., LVL) over treated dimensional lumber, because of the better long-term dimensional stability. However, like earlier comments, I am now pretty pleased with a new product from Fox Blocks – their Fox Bucks. Check them out.
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 31 May 2013 10:17 PM |
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Can LVL'S be used as window bucks? I did not think about using LVL's for window bucks since it is a laminated product. I would think that moisture would cause the plies to separate. Does anyone know the exposure rating to weather for LVL's? |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 01 Jun 2013 09:12 AM |
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I don't understand all the angst about treated wood. I think it is nearly ideal for bucks. It's inexpensive and easy to work with.
There is some curling and warping during the concrete curing process and subsequent drying out, but I can't think of a single time it affected anything.on my build. I have a large number of 8', 10', and 12' openings and the treated wood bucks were never a problem. None of that wood stays curled once everything dries out. We are now two years into the build, more than 18 months after the last of the concrete and the treated wood is dry, perfectly straight and as hard as iron. It is like a perfect transition of the concrete to windows, doors, etc. |
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FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
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| 01 Jun 2013 09:53 AM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Jun 2013 09:12 AM
I don't understand all the angst about treated wood. I think it is nearly ideal for bucks. It's inexpensive and easy to work with.
There is some curling and warping during the concrete curing process and subsequent drying out, but I can't think of a single time it affected anything.on my build. I have a large number of 8', 10', and 12' openings and the treated wood bucks were never a problem. None of that wood stays curled once everything dries out. We are now two years into the build, more than 18 months after the last of the concrete and the treated wood is dry, perfectly straight and as hard as iron. It is like a perfect transition of the concrete to windows, doors, etc.
How did you seal the wood to the concrete core to prevent air infiltration now and in the future?
Is you rough opening large enough to get sufficient foam between the window jamb and the wood buck to prevent the jamb from being a cold surface? |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 01 Jun 2013 10:14 AM |
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In the southeast, the treated wood is made from fast growing, southern pine. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that slower growing wood in colder regions have tighter grain and is less likely to cause problems. I know that I do not want to specify southern grown treated pine for decks anymore. Too many problems and maintenance. After a few years, the treated wood deck is not visually appealing. Since wood is cheap, it will cost more to use synthetics, but the lifetime costs can be less than wood. At least that is the way I see it.
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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arkie6
Veteran Member
Posts:1453
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| 01 Jun 2013 01:51 PM |
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Posted By FBBP on 01 Jun 2013 09:53 AM
How did you seal the wood to the concrete core to prevent air infiltration now and in the future?
Is you rough opening large enough to get sufficient foam between the window jamb and the wood buck to prevent the jamb from being a cold surface?
I'm not sure how ICFHybrid did it, but I inset my wood bucks into the ICF foam as recommended by my ICF manufacturer and distributor. For my 6" core ICF walls 11" overall width), I purchased treated 2x8 lumber for the bucks. I then ripped down the 7-1/4" wide boards to 6" wide on my table saw. These wood bucks had 3" deck screws screwed ~1" deep into the wood on the backside approximately every 8" to help lock it to the concrete after it cures. These wood bucks were then inset into the ICF foam and secured to the foam using 2" diameter EIFS plastic washers and 3-1/2" deck screws every 8" through the 2-1/2" foam into the edge of the wood buck. There will not be any air leaking between my wood bucks and concrete. If you use flange mount windows and mount your windows externally, you can just mount them on the outside of the foam using long screws through the foam into the edge of the wood buck. Everything is fully insulated that way. If you use the same flange mount windows but want them inset somewhere near the middle of the window opening, you build your window bucks at least 3" wider and 3" taller than your window rough opening, then come back with 2x framing lumber on the inside of the wood buck to frame out the window attachment point. You can use kiln dried lumber here, but I used treated 2x below the window. Lay down a bead of expanding foam before installing the inside 2x lumber to insure an air tight seal. I did this on my south facing windows, but increased the window buck height to 4.5" to allow me to install a double layer of treated 2x lumber below the window and one (1) kiln dried 2x above the window. This 3" below the window frame allowed me to install a fairly steep sloped sill on the exterior to insure water drains away. I've got a brick exterior and it is ~10" from the face of window to the outside face of the brick. |
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