Texas, I meant that Quad-Lock's plastic connectors (ties) are designed to hold one block (on the left for example) to the other (on the right of it, for example) with the top tie and the bottom ties - so the blocks can't separate.

The factory guy tells me that they also hold like the Nudura clipping system (to eliminate floating) because of the way they press into the blocks, holding the block on top tight to the block on the bottom. Here's a photo:
http://www.quadlock.com/insulated-concrete-forms/ties.htm

There does seem to be a heck of a lot of plastic in the way, for maneuvering concrete placement however. What do you think?

Posted By Roger R on 12 Jul 2013 12:28 PM
Texas, I meant that Quad-Lock's plastic connectors (ties) are designed to hold one block (on the left for example) to the other (on the right of it, for example) with the top tie and the bottom ties - so the blocks can't separate.

The factory guy tells me that they also hold like the Nudura clipping system (to eliminate floating) because of the way they press into the blocks, holding the block on top tight to the block on the bottom. Here's a photo:
http://www.quadlock.com/insulated-concrete-forms/ties.htm

There does seem to be a heck of a lot of plastic in the way, for maneuvering concrete placement however. What do you think?

Nudura's system physically locks into place, the Quad Lock system is held by friction, not quite the same. Either one will still work but with Quad Lock you will need to use lumber to tie the forms together so that they don't float when they do the pour. It's added work but in the end it's up to you which one you choose.

Get a delivered price quote from both manufacturers and make a decision from there. I honestly believe Nudura is more DIY friendly but it's just an opinion and like you have observed, it will vary from person to person.

Lbear,
Thanks for your comments. Can you please tell me how you space / place the 1X4's?
One 1X4 from top to bottom on each end/corner?
How many more between the corners?
Do you have to put additional screws in the field of the 1X4's or just one on each end of each 1X4?
Thanks

Posted By Roger R on 12 Jul 2013 11:56 PM
Lbear,
Thanks for your comments. Can you please tell me how you space / place the 1X4's?
One 1X4 from top to bottom on each end/corner?
How many more between the corners?
Do you have to put additional screws in the field of the 1X4's or just one on each end of each 1X4?
Thanks

Roger - to do it right you would put a 1x4 on the opposite side of each strongback/brace assembly. While a couple of screws in the top and bottom would do the trick, I would probably put a few in the field as well. You might consider using 2x4s if they are easier to reuse in the balance of the project.
If you are set on using Quad Lock, tying them down goes a long way to making them equal to any other ICF. If you are aware of the problem, you can get ahead of it.

FBBP,
Thanks very much. I'm actually having a quote from both of the companies - so we can compare costs.
My concrete guy likes the feature of Quad-Lock that will let him build a rebar cage, if he wants.

Posted By Roger R on 14 Jul 2013 01:38 AM
FBBP,
Thanks very much. I'm actually having a quote from both of the companies - so we can compare costs.
My concrete guy likes the feature of Quad-Lock that will let him build a rebar cage, if he wants.

I find that contractors that have only done conventional forming think that setting up one side, installing rebar, then closing in with other side of forms is the best/easiest/only way to form concrete.  With a block style ICF, setting your horizontal bars as you build, then placing vertical bar before pouring is VERY simple. 

While you are requesting your quote, be sure technical support/training/inspections can be provided by the block supplier.  Having an experienced installer on-site to help a contractor new to ICF will immediately ease their concerns regarding bracing/rebar/pouring.  It's simply something they may not have done before.

Besides, with QL you are still going to close in the wall as you build, so building a rebar cage (as with conventional forms) may not be possible anyway.  NUDURA does have unassembled forms that can be site built for heavier rebar details, but these are more expensive and time consuming, so stick to their assembled forms as much as possible.

Posted By ICFBdr on 16 Jul 2013 10:58 AM

I find that contractors that have only done conventional forming think that setting up one side, installing rebar, then closing in with other side of forms is the best/easiest/only way to form concrete.  With a block style ICF, setting your horizontal bars as you build, then placing vertical bar before pouring is VERY simple. 

While you are requesting your quote, be sure technical support/training/inspections can be provided by the block supplier.  Having an experienced installer on-site to help a contractor new to ICF will immediately ease their concerns regarding bracing/rebar/pouring.  It's simply something they may not have done before.

Besides, with QL you are still going to close in the wall as you build, so building a rebar cage (as with conventional forms) may not be possible anyway.  NUDURA does have unassembled forms that can be site built for heavier rebar details, but these are more expensive and time consuming, so stick to their assembled forms as much as possible.

ICFBrd, The tech advice from Quad-Lock has been good 'once' I get someone to respond. If I wasn't persistent, I couldn't say they are all that good. The distributor knows quite a lot, and has introduced me to a guy who is retired from the building trade, that has done 10+ Quad-Lock houses. This guy will be glad to help us out, get us started and be there for the concrete placement - as a consultant. My neighbor is a retired bridge builder (that's where the rebar cages come into play) and I've got 2 other very capable helpers. I am hoping that between us all, it will be ok to do this as a DIY project... we'll go up 12-13' on the walls plus the two gable ends. I am hopeful that my engineer calls out rebar placement as per the factory specs - so we don't have to build a cage. Otherwise, my neighbor has built more cages than you can ever imagine, which I am extremely grateful for.

ICFBrd, The tech advice from Quad-Lock has been good 'once' I get someone to respond. If I wasn't persistent, I couldn't say they are all that good. The distributor knows quite a lot, and has introduced me to a guy who is retired from the building trade, that has done 10+ Quad-Lock houses. This guy will be glad to help us out, get us started and be there for the concrete placement - as a consultant. My neighbor is a retired bridge builder (that's where the rebar cages come into play) and I've got 2 other very capable helpers. I am hoping that between us all, it will be ok to do this as a DIY project... we'll go up 12-13' on the walls plus the two gable ends. I am hopeful that my engineer calls out rebar placement as per the factory specs - so we don't have to build a cage. Otherwise, my neighbor has built more cages than you can ever imagine, which I am extremely grateful for.

we recently used quadlock for our basement pour. the products performed exceptionally, and we were very happy with the overall finished product. This was a complete DIY pour, and quadlock supported us every step of the way. we did end up needing some "cages" over our door/window openings, and it is very doable. You just have to think about it as your are going along. Don't shy away from the DIY prospect.... just make sure you study the product and plan ahead!

Good luck!

Dan

Posted By danreed76 on 21 Jul 2013 04:42 PM
we recently used quadlock for our basement pour. the products performed exceptionally, and we were very happy with the overall finished product. This was a complete DIY pour, and quadlock supported us every step of the way. we did end up needing some "cages" over our door/window openings, and it is very doable. You just have to think about it as your are going along. Don't shy away from the DIY prospect.... just make sure you study the product and plan ahead!

Good luck!

Dan

Dan, What part of the country are you in? Was the help/support you received from your local QL distributor or from the factory people themselves?
How high were your walls and did you brace them against floating?

My support was from the folks at Quadlock's corporate office. I'm in the US (eastern time), so I have a bit of a time difference, but the longest I ever had to wait for an answer was from the time I left a message until the time their office opened.

I braced the walls from the interior, using the Zont and Zuckle system from fabform, which worked out great. I didn't end up having to rent the braces and all the lumber is being reused in the construction process, and I figure eventually I can sell the stuff to someone else who needs it. We did 9'6" walls in a single pour (4 lifts) using a pump mix designed by our ready mix supplier.

Feel free to PM me some contact information and I will be happy to send you some photos.

regarding the floating, we didn't do anything extra (zip ties, etc). we didn't end up with any floating or compression issues.

-Dan

Posted By FBBP on 08 Jul 2013 11:36 AM

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 08 Jul 2013 08:27 AM
Plastic (usually polypropylene) fastening strips were introduced into ICFs in order to make a lower cost product that could be easily sold to DIY homewowners with little knowledge of construction. It is one of the silly characteristics of insulating concrete forms that makes it hard for commercial construction professionals to look at our industry as anything other than a quirky fringe product.

In my opinion, plastic cross ties and plastic fastening strips are a safety issue. They cannot hold a screw like steel does. That means they cannot hold a brace, sheetrock, cabinets, a flat screen or even a painting like steel does.They do not perform as well in a fire either. Don't take my word for it, look at the facts. Here's a recent blog post http://polycreteusa.blogspot.com/2013/06/i-havent-had-really-good-rantfor-long.html (Administrator, this is not a plug, it's an expose).

There are two or three manufacturers of ICFs with steel cross ties and steel fastening strips. I know about the ICF manufacturing process. There is no reason why any of the main stream ICF companies cannot make a steel version.

And there is simply no reason they would want to. That why they are mainstream. If your product is so bad that the only way you can promote it is by fear mongering and ranting, I guess we don't have to worry about it ever being mainstream.

FBBP, Cheers to that! Bruce, I can not remember seeing one post on here that any of us talk down about your product, most PROFESSIONALS will sell on the merits of their product and not the demerits of their competitors. If you choose to employ the negative selling technique the fate is sealed. You notice that all of us "plastic web" guys sponsor this site, how come I never see your company's logo in the sponsor list if this is such a great "marketing" place for you? You have said so many times that I lost count that "you will not do business with DIY customers as they are all morons" so move on. Those of us that know what sales, marketing, and customer service is will handle this DIY customer. Have a nice day.

Brian, few from our markets visit this site. I just like to come on here from time to time to shake things up. Have a look at the new PolycreteUSA.com website when you get a moment Cheers! PS: I don't believe I have called DIY-ers "morons". I do argue that ICF is not a DIY trade -- and I stand by that.

Roger, the first thing I would do is to disqalify any system whose reps get on this forum and self-promote. That should be a red flag, and a clear indication that this individual is not burdened by either intelligence or honesty.

Now, more to the point: All ICFs who carry ICC evaluations are governed by the ICC Acceptance Criteria AC353. This criteria makes us do testing to establish what the holding power of certain fasteners is in our ties. They then apply a divisor, or "safety factor" that ranges between 3 and 5. The result is an "allowable load" which is published in each ICC evaluation report. Go to www.icc-es.org for a complete list.

Those same reports will probably offer the Fire Resistance Rating, if that has been sought by the proponent. If the FRR is listed, then you can be certain that the wall has been tested thoroughly by UL or INterTek, and there WILL BE NO BURN-THROUGH OF TIES. The FRR is about concrete....nothing else. As pointed out above, the foam goes away at about 190F, and will only be marginally protected by drywall.

CHeers,
Douglas

Roger, Lbear, et. al.:

In 18 years, I have never seen or heard of a Quad-Lock panel "floating". The question is often asked, and the answer is always the same........NO. It is the "theory of displacement" at work. There is not enough volume in the QL ties to generate any bouyancy. Therefore, unless you are pumping from the bottom of the wall upwards, there isn't any likelihood of "floating"

Any gaps between QL panels are there because the installer didn't force the panel into position by slapping it down with his hands....... or possibly because there is foreign material in the way.

DJB

Roger, Lbear, et. al.:

In 18 years, I have never seen or heard of a Quad-Lock panel "floating". The question is often asked, and the answer is always the same........NO. It is the "theory of displacement" at work. There is not enough volume in the QL ties to generate any bouyancy. Therefore, unless you are pumping from the bottom of the wall upwards, there isn't any likelihood of "floating"

Any gaps between QL panels are there because the installer didn't force the panel into position by slapping it down with his hands....... or possibly because there is foreign material in the way.

DJB

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 24 Jul 2013 03:28 PM
Brian, few from our markets visit this site. I just like to come on here from time to time to shake things up. Have a look at the new PolycreteUSA.com website when you get a moment Cheers! PS: I don't believe I have called DIY-ers "morons". I do argue that ICF is not a DIY trade -- and I stand by that.

I would not consider us in the same market. I am a sales professional, you are not. I would rather compare myself to the south end of a north bound donkey than you. As for looking at your website. No thanks, I hear enough useless info about your fly by night system in all your worthless posts here. Do us all a favor and go away. Cheers...

Hi BrainBaron, when I use the term "our" markets, the possessive plural pronoun refers to the members of Team Polycrete, not you and me. Not sure where you get the "fly by night" dig, Polycrete commercial buildings have been going up on five continents since 1988 and we have dedicated, proprietary manufacturing facilities in North America, Europe and Asia (no contract manufacturers). Thanks for asking!

Posted By d'techguy on 24 Jul 2013 04:18 PM
Roger, Lbear, et. al.:

In 18 years, I have never seen or heard of a Quad-Lock panel "floating". The question is often asked, and the answer is always the same........NO. It is the "theory of displacement" at work. There is not enough volume in the QL ties to generate any bouyancy. Therefore, unless you are pumping from the bottom of the wall upwards, there isn't any likelihood of "floating"

Any gaps between QL panels are there because the installer didn't force the panel into position by slapping it down with his hands....... or possibly because there is foreign material in the way.

DJB

DJB, Is it a good practice, bad practice or just an unneeded practice to tack (glue/foam) the panels together as you place them?