|
|
dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
 |
| 11 Jan 2014 11:28 AM |
|
Posted By Alton on 11 Jan 2014 10:49 AM
Foaming the inside will mean that the drywall will have to be attached with longer screws or be left to float free. My guess is that most drywallers will agree to let the drywall float free at the top since it would be only 1.5" up to the ceiling drywall.
That approach is the code, recommendation, mfr spec, or what I don't recall, for ceiling drywall. Don't fasten the drywall within something like 6" from the wall to allow it to move up and down as the ceiling joists or trusses move up and down. Of course the edge is resting on top of the wall sheet, or should be anyway. The top edge of the wall sheet will be taped to the ceiling sheet so there should be a firm connection so your suggestion should work quite well, I think. |
|
| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
|
|
FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
|
| 11 Jan 2014 12:05 PM |
|
Try it this way.
Floating the last 6 inches or so of a drywall ceiling on trusses is the way to go, however it may not be necessary on a sip roof. No contraction of the truss chords. |
 Attachment: Icf_to_sip_roof_detail.pdf
|
|
|
|
Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
|
| 11 Jan 2014 06:17 PM |
|
Posted By FBBP on 11 Jan 2014 12:05 PM
Try it this way.
Floating the last 6 inches or so of a drywall ceiling on trusses is the way to go, however it may not be necessary on a sip roof. No contraction of the truss chords.
A Steel SIP roof should have a lot less movement than a wood truss roof. I need to modify my detail to show the interior transition of the drywall/ceiling area. The drywall will NOT go all the way up to the SIP, I will revise and post that detail. FBBP - Regarding your detail. Can a Douglas Fir 4x6 top plate be used instead of a 2x6? How do they pour the wall and create that 22 degree or 5:12 pitch in the concrete? I always thought concrete would want to "self level" and cure flat/level. I do like the idea of countersinking the 4x6 top plate within the EPS foam. This makes it easier to finish the interior and exterior later on. |
|
|
|
|
Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
|
| 11 Jan 2014 07:22 PM |
|
Adding too much water to a concrete mix will result in the concrete flowing and "self leveling". We call that "pouring" concrete. Ideally, concrete should be placed instead of poured. Contractors often pour concrete to avoid extra work in placing and vibrating the concrete.
Your local ready-mix company should be able to provide a mix that can be pumped and still be stiff enough to hold its shape. However, the reduction in water will probably require water-reducing additives and vibration. A good ICF contractor should be able to slope the concrete. He may have to wait a little while before the final screeding so that the concrete will hold its shape. |
|
Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
|
|
FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
|
| 11 Jan 2014 08:46 PM |
|
Bear - why would you want to use a 4x6? I'm sure the lumber yard will appreciate your patronage but there is no need to use solid lumber. If you feel you need more penetration for the fasteners, just get a 2 x 12 and rip it in half at a 5/12 and double up the plate.
solid lumber is not your friend in this situation. As you know, there is a lot of moisture in the wall, so the chance of the 4x6 twisting and turning is great. On the other hand if you use the 2 x 12 you will flip the ends around and the two halves will work against each other, limiting the twist. Remember, this is no different then a wood window buck!
Alton has covered the self levelling. If your mix arrives in a flowable form, send it back. Not only will it increase the chance of blow out, it puts more moisture in the wall then needed. |
|
|
|
|
Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
|
| 11 Jan 2014 09:46 PM |
|
If a mix arrives too fluid, then use it everywhere but at the top, provided the water-to-cement ratio is within strength requirements. |
|
Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
|
|
FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
|
| 11 Jan 2014 10:18 PM |
|
Posted By Alton on 11 Jan 2014 09:46 PM
If a mix arrives too fluid, then use it everywhere but at the top, provided the water-to-cement ratio is within strength requirements.
Alton - if the concrete is too fluid and you use it at the bottom, you more then triple the side wall pressure on the ICF because it cannot stand on itself. Also it will usually take long to "kick over" so as you place more concrete on the fluid concrete it wants to push out even harder almost guaranteeing a blowout. This is why we can't use self levelling/consolidating mixes in ICF forms.
The best thing to do is send it back however experienced concrete guys will do things to help out their batch plant if they can. If we are on a large pour and one of the first trucks comes loose, I will immediately call the batch plant to find out why. If they know what happened, they can hurry up the second truck (maybe slightly over batched) and we will off load the two trucks into the hopper at the same time. If the load is at the end of the pour and they can assure me that it is good other then to low a slump, we will sometime pour it near the top as its weight won't hurt the lower product already in place. We always order stiff and add at least one litre per meter of s.p. on site. The product usually reverts to its original design in about 20 to 30 minutes so by the time we are pouring our second lift, the first lift can handle the extra weight. |
|
|
|
|
FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
|
| 11 Jan 2014 10:28 PM |
|
Hey Bear - why was it you chose to go with a sip roof? |
|
|
|
|
Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
|
| 12 Jan 2014 02:07 AM |
|
Posted By FBBP on 11 Jan 2014 10:28 PM
Hey Bear - why was it you chose to go with a sip roof?
The 4x6 was chosen because the Prescriptive Method for installing SIPs requires 2" of screw embedding. A 4x6 is really going to turn out to be a 3.5 x 5.5. A 2x6 would cause the screw to bottom out and not get proper embedding. As far as why I chose to go with a SIP roof. The choices were many but mainly because the design fits a SIP roof perfectly. The home features vaulted ceilings with exposed beams. Trusses were out of the question because of the design, if it was wood frame, it would all have to be stick framed as trusses wouldn't work. Here are my reasons for going with Steel SIPs: - Ease & speed of installation
- Instant vapor barrier
- Saves money on not needing a crane (vs. trusses)
- Termite resistance
- Fire resistance
- Air tightness
- No venting of attic needed
- Conditioned Attic space
- SIPs create an "instant" 24" soffit overhang without additional labor and costs of wood framing and then venting the soffits
- No wood on the exterior of home (termites and fire reasons)
- Strength of panels (much stronger than an OSB sheathed trusses)
- Rot resistant
- 12" Panel gives me R-50
- Once installed you have your roof, insulation, vapor barrier, sheathing, in one step and one trade. That saves on time, labor and costs
|
|
|
|
|
Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
|
| 13 Jan 2014 03:26 AM |
|
I found these sill plate products: Sill SealerProtectoBondWhat's nice about the above products is that they have a peel & stick membrane on one side with a foam sill product on the other side. You get the waterproofing and air sealing in one product. The P&S makes it nice since it stays in place once it's put down. One could use this product on the bottom and top of the wood top plate to seal the top plate to the ICF wall and Steel SIP roof. |
|
|
|
|
ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
|
| 13 Jan 2014 01:10 PM |
|
Posted By Lbear on 10 Jan 2014 11:38 PM
Posted By FBBP on 10 Jan 2014 09:59 PM
Posted By Alton on 09 Jan 2014 05:31 PM
Another method to eliminate cutting the top plate at an angle might be to slope the ICF wall. This means that one side of the ICF form would be cut lower than the other to make the 5 to 12 pitch.
This would be my preferred method. Any ICF installer use to doing gable walls should have no problem with it. Either pre cut the ICF panels to slope or place and cut the panels. If pre cutting, order loose panels and webs for this portion. Make up a skate of plywood that spans the to sloped pieces and attach a 2x6 to remove and level the concrete inside the form. Place anchors and install plate with sill gasket after the pour. It may be quicker embedding straps that fold up over the top of the plate.
Alton -
That's a great idea. Here is what I sketched up after I read these posts:
How should I air seal between the Steel SIP and 4x6 DougFir? Would the same sill plate foam that comes in a roll work for the bottom and top of the 4x6 to help seal and protect the wood?
Regarding the EPS foam wedges on the exterior and interior. I want to run Stucco all the way to the top of the wall to the SIP. The rigid EPS foam wedge can be glued and screwed to the 4x6 and then I can tape the EPS joint, cover it with StuccoMax and fiberglass mesh and it should be good to go.
Would I be a good idea to caulk the joint between the Steel SIP and top plate and the joint between the concrete and 4x6, on both the exterior & interior sides, before the EPS wedges are installed (I want an air tight seal)?
Why can't you just bevel the 4x6, so that it fits inside the eps foam of the ICF block? it should be easy to make the 4x6 have a 5:12 slope, or as someone else mentioned, you could just connect 2 2x4 together. When they sloped my ICF wall, sort of like a gable, they created a form top piece and the anchor bolts were already part of the from. They used the same LVL as they did for the window buck. I am not worried about the thermal break because I will use blown-in open cell foam for my attic insulation, so I don't need to place the form or top plate within the EPS foam. |
|
|
|
|
FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
|
| 13 Jan 2014 03:31 PM |
|
Posted By Lbear on 13 Jan 2014 03:26 AM
I found these sill plate products:
Sill Sealer
ProtectoBond
What's nice about the above products is that they have a peel & stick membrane on one side with a foam sill product on the other side. You get the waterproofing and air sealing in one product. The P&S makes it nice since it stays in place once it's put down.
One could use this product on the bottom and top of the wood top plate to seal the top plate to the ICF wall and Steel SIP roof.
I'd still be worried about the timber getting wet and then not drying quick enough if you use to much peel and stick.
What about looking into some of the decking materials (Trex etc). They should give you the same pull out strength. They won't rot and I believe are termite resistant.
Inset the plastic wood into the eps, wrap the strapping around them and lay a good epdm gasket over the top before placing the sips. If you don't use wood window bucks, your whole envelope should be wood (and termite) free! |
|
|
|
|
Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
|
| 19 Jan 2014 01:13 AM |
|
I got a sample of the ProtectoWrap Premium Sill Sealer peel & stick. I think it would work great to seal the steel SIP to the wood top plate and the top plate to the concrete wall. The one side is very sticky and waterproof and the other is 3/8" EPS. It compresses really nice and would form an air tight and waterproof seal.
Would it make more sense to apply the sticky side to the bottom of the steel SIP or to the sticky side to the top of the wood top plate? I am assuming the latter since it would be difficult to apply it to the bottom side of the steel SIP as you are laying it down to the top plate.
ProtectoWrap makes a lot of cool products. They even have a peel & stick for roofs and door sills. They have a Stucco Tape that allows one to use it as a peel & stick on one side to attach to window frame areas and polyester on the other side so that EIFS can stick to it. This allows one to run stucco all the way up to the window frame area without needing EPS foam.
|
|
|
|
|
TLP
Basic Member
Posts:207
|
| 06 Feb 2014 11:06 AM |
|
Perhaps my lack of understanding on how to attach steel sips to an ICF wall but, what is the top plate doing that attaching the steel SIP to tapered ICF directly can not? |
|
|
|
|
Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
|
| 06 Feb 2014 11:18 PM |
|
Posted By TLP on 06 Feb 2014 11:06 AM
Perhaps my lack of understanding on how to attach steel sips to an ICF wall but, what is the top plate doing that attaching the steel SIP to tapered ICF directly can not?
Anchoring a SIP screw directly into concrete would not be possible since the SIP screw is not designed for that. It is a narrow fine screw thread and the probability of it pulling out of the concrete would be 100%. Code would not allow for this either. A concrete screw is designed totally different than a SIP screw and a concrete screw (Tapcon) needs to first be pre-drilled with a drill bit. That is impossible to do with a SIP roof attachment. |
|
|
|
|
ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
|
| 13 Feb 2014 11:28 AM |
|
@ LbearWould you mind sharing your roof layout in plan top view. |
|
|
|
|