people are trying to find a workable solution

We're pretty sure that an open hearth fireplace is not a "workable solution" to any definition of building green.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 24 Jul 2014 09:54 PM

We're pretty sure that an open hearth fireplace is not a "workable solution" to any definition of building green.

Exactly. It's like installing a coal-fired stove in your home and asking how to make it green.

Interestingly enough, the use of wood burning and even coal burning in places like Fairbanks has caused the air quality in that area to suffer and the concentrations of fine particulates in the air is getting above federal limits. So what was once the clean-air of Fairbanks Alaska, it is now turning into a health hazard because too many people are using open wood fireplaces and even coal burning stoves.

There are viable alternatives, of which Dana mentioned.

@ JonHoebelheinrich: You asked if somebody has experience with an open wood burning fireplace. I don't have this experience from living in an ICF home, but I come from a country where this type of fireplace is more common and I'll try to give you some ideas to think about. No doubt that it's a very cozy warmth you would gain from it. And even if the codes allow for it and if you don't mind the loss of efficiency of an ICF home, here are some things to consider:
- Cost of wood, hauling the wood, stacking the wood, keeping it somewhere dry, etc.
- development of smoke, need to open doors/windows from time to time
- a lot of dirt around the fireplace, if you like it clean, you'll sweep every day
- constantly debating who's bringing the wood inside
- the walls get dirty quickly, painting the room more than you want is not uncommon

If it was my decision and it would be more for the looks, not primarily to heating the house, I probably would go with a Bio Ethanol Fireplace. It surely does not replace a wood fireplace, but it would be a relatively inexpensive and clean alternative that you can place in any room you wish. A friend of mine had it, it can heat up a smaller area, and in the meanwhile they can be very decorative with nice designs. https://www.google.com/search?q=bio+ethanol+fireplace&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=w7nRU-WuJ-KbjALGv4HoAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CGMQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=889
Can't say too much about it as I never owned one.

In regards to comments from LBear: I get more and more the impression, that LBear gets bullied in this forum. I get it, that LBear has his own opinions (we all have which is a good thing), preaches what he believes and not everybody gets to hear from him what he asked for, wished for or expected to hear. But that's the nature of a forum. I am convinced that his intentions to give advise are good although his choice of words might sometimes be misunderstood from some of us. Don't take it personal, take advise where you want it and ignore what you don't want. It's so easy. It almost seems that there is a growing group that gets encouraged from other bullies to do the same. Most of us here are no teenagers any more and should know better.

@ eugenepan: in regards to your comment: "If you want to be talk about being truly green, you wouldn't choose to build a home in the desert."
Can't exactly agree with what you are writing. We are currently building a home in the desert. Our goal is to build green and there are various options to do that in the desert, too. Just think about solar, if you invest in the system, you can even go off-grid, doesn't matter how much air conditioning you will need. Building ICF will reduce the need of lots of panels, too. If you plan the right landscaping (look up for Xeriscaping), then you can reduce the water consumption as well. And then the winters...... OMG, we really don't need lots of heating throughout the winter. And our water heater reduces 80% of energy while heating with the help of ambient (hot) air and at the same time cooling the room for free. LED lights also work energy efficient in the desert. Anyway, what I try to say.... if you really want to build green, there are options to do it everywhere.

rafi,

my main issue is selective criticism.  if you want to be green on the absolute scale, then you don't build on virgin land far from away from civilization and then use central services.  i am not saying that you can't build a home in a better method than the next guy, but if you want to be really green, we wouldn't build brand new single family homes.

so criticizing someone for not being "green", when they are also not green is hypocritical.  the OP was asking for a solution to his desires.  based on yellowcat and sailawayrb, maybe the masonry heater will satisfy all of his needs, and then we are back to a very green solution.

it is funny that you say the lbear is being bullied, because i feel he is the one that is always jumping on people.  look up half of his replies, and they are just harsh criticisms.  no solution. just harsh criticism.

he jumps all over people, and when he is proven wrong, he never apologizes, he just goes on to the next victim.

some people on this forum are trying to provide solutions to people's questions, some people criticize.

i take exception to the fact that some of the critics are making many, many non-green choices, but they feel that they can still hurl rocks in their glass houses.  if you think he is being bullied, that is an unusual stance, but how do you feel about his harsh criticism of the OP.

i looked at some of the masonry heaters, and it would satisfy many people's reasons for getting an open wood burning fireplace, maybe it will satisfy the OP, maybe it won't, but the fact is that the harsh critics just key on a few words, and keep going and going and going.  without looking at all of the possible solutions that have been provided.

i find that they are the ones that need to back off, and I feel compelled to tell them every time I see their actions.

they are just harsh criticisms.

The idea of putting an open fireplace in a "green" home should draw harsh criticism. Why are you so sensitive to this? Do you have an abominable open fireplace?

Are you the same poster that was promoting yurts sometime back?

Posted By Rafi on 24 Jul 2014 11:24 PM

In regards to comments from LBear: I get more and more the impression, that LBear gets bullied in this forum. I get it, that LBear has his own opinions (we all have which is a good thing), preaches what he believes and not everybody gets to hear from him what he asked for, wished for or expected to hear. But that's the nature of a forum. I am convinced that his intentions to give advise are good although his choice of words might sometimes be misunderstood from some of us. Don't take it personal, take advise where you want it and ignore what you don't want. It's so easy. It almost seems that there is a growing group that gets encouraged from other bullies to do the same. Most of us here are no teenagers any more and should know better.

Thank you Rafi. A little history will help you understand who "Eugunep" really is and why he jumps all over me, ICFHybrid, and a few others.

Before you become a forum member, Eugenep attacked me and used some pretty vulgar language and went into a diatribe of venomous language and personal attacks. Here is a sample of his assorted statements that he directed at me and other forum members:

Posted By eugenep on 28 Aug 2013 02:04 PM

asshole

crap

shut your trap

Your gristle

Get a life you loser

go crawl under a rock

your drivel

Ever since then he sits on the sidelines and waits for me or others like ICFHybrid to post something and then he comes out of the woodwork and starts his personal attacks. Instead of agreeing to disagree and instead of acting like a mature adult, he becomes an adolescent internet bully or "troll" as they are called, and starts on his personal attacks.

Recently he went after ICFHybrid because of the square footage of his home. In this thread he started up on ICFHybrid and then started up on me, attacking us both. Like any bully, he lacks confidence and gets pleasure from personally attacking people and pleasures in getting a rouse out of them. So now you know who he is and what he is all about. I've wasted enough time with him and like before, I will ignore him and his childish behavior. Like a real life bully or in this case an "internet troll", you must ignore them so they go away and go back under their bridge.

I really love this site. I have learned a lot and wish to continue to do so. There seems to be some quarreling going on concerning members opinions. Would it b helpful to just stick to the facts and site the research that backs it up?

Concerning fireplaces and wood stoves, has some reasearch been done that quantifies the increase in air exchange per hour they contribute? If so, that information could be plugged in to Manuel J or some other spreadsheet to access the heating load impact and subsequent cost.

At full temp during continuous burning, yes the best masonry heaters are lower emissions and higher efficiency than most wood stoves, but that isn't necessarily borne out in-situ. 

A peak test efficiency of 92% (or 80%) does not indicate an as-used efficiency, and intermittent firing (the normal operating mode of masonry heaters) induces a bigger hit in efficiency and total emissions than dampering (within limits- dampering to smolder mode is a disaster).  The third party in-situ test of the Tulikivi I linked to in the previous post was in part an attempt to determine just how big that hit is, and while the testing error is large in that one-off, the test showed ~80% average efficiency, and total emissions were not tested.) Tulikivi's efficiency tests during a burn cycle show that the combustion efficiency rises to the mid-80s at about 15 minutes into the burn, peaking at about 90% at about 30 minutes into the burn, then gradually declining, tailing off to below 50% during the trailing edge of the burn (efficiency is the red line- the blue line is the CO emissions):



Are we really going to assume that the average efficiency is anything like the peak efficiency, given that they are usually operated with intermittent burns?

Wood stoves & masonry are tested for EPA emissions under a standard set of test criteria. The particulate emissions of standard product masonry heaters are often tested & measured (as has the Envirotech), but many masonry heaters in the US are one-off craft-built units of unspecified, unmeasured & unknown emissions. One  standard model of Tulikivi mass heater EPA-tested at 2.8 grams/hr, another at 4.2 grams/hr, whereas the Envirotech tested at 1.4 grams/hr, as indicated on p.6 of this document. The test conditions for particulates emissions testing include PRE-FIRING of the unit, not start-up, and the figures indicate it's emissions only when firing at it's full rated output while already at temperature, not it's average emissions over a burn cycle.  Efficiency testing standard are also peak numbers, not the average.  These numbers for mass heaters at peak fire is within the range of test numbers for better higher efficiency/lower-emissions non-catalytic woodstoves. (eg: The ~30,000 BTU/hr Hearthstone Tula tests at 88% efficiency & 2.6 grams/hr, and is "right sized" for a lot of homes, since it can be operated cleanly at firing rates as low as 12,000 BTU/hr.)

But MAJORITY of the particulate emissions from any of this type of wood burner are on the heat-up stage, not at continuous burn, and whereas many wood stoves can be sized reasonably for operating at continuous burn, almost all mass heaters are fired then re-started multiple times per day, spending more time in the heating-up phase than a right-sized wood stove. Since the start up ramps contribute the majority of the emissions, there's reason to believe that masonry heaters while comparable, are probably somewhat higher emissions than best-in-class non catalytic wood stoves.

Unfortunately there is very little third party in-situ testing of either the emissions or efficiency of wood-burners.  Some wood boilers are very efficient and low emissions at high fire, but the crude controls on most of them damper way back into high-emissions smolder mode, and are such a huge local air pollution problem that some states restrict their use.  (In MA if the wood boiler is within some number of feet of a neighbor's dwelling the neighbor can permanently shut it down with a phone call and a letter.)

Of course operator error can bring either masonry heaters or wood stoves to their knees on both efficiency & emissions.  While masonry heaters (even home-built) are closer to the wood-stove end of the emissions scale relative to open hearth wood burning, it's nowhere near a verified fact that the average emissions are lower than better class wood stoves. At high-fire an open hearth fireplace is emitting as much or more than a masonry heater or wood stove does during the cold-start phase of a burn- they're an emissions disaster.

Don't get me wrong, I too am a fan of masonry heaters- I just don't accept the efficiency & emissions numbers at face value (just as I don't take the numbers for wood stoves and wood boilers at face value.)  Sizing the thing correctly for the heat loads, using reasonably dry fuel, and operating it correctly are bigger factors for both the as-used efficiency & emissions than the lab test numbers.

Another masonry heater company touts only "...designed to exceed 75% efficiency..."  (italics mine), and compares it to 60% "traditional" wood stove efficiency, which is below the efficiency of all EPA qualified wood stoves, which use 63% as the low-end default for stoves that haven't been third party verified for efficiency.  It's probably hard to meet the EPA emissions numbers with efficiencies that low, but I suspect there are existence proofs behind the default efficiency estimate.  Yet another posits, "Efficiency of masonry heaters of the best design falls within the range of 65 to 85%." These are also credible numbers, but the as-used efficiency depends on the fraction of the time it's spending at mid-fire or higher.

Posted By Lbear on 25 Jul 2014 01:56 AM

Posted By Rafi on 24 Jul 2014 11:24 PM

In regards to comments from LBear: I get more and more the impression, that LBear gets bullied in this forum. I get it, that LBear has his own opinions (we all have which is a good thing), preaches what he believes and not everybody gets to hear from him what he asked for, wished for or expected to hear. But that's the nature of a forum. I am convinced that his intentions to give advise are good although his choice of words might sometimes be misunderstood from some of us. Don't take it personal, take advise where you want it and ignore what you don't want. It's so easy. It almost seems that there is a growing group that gets encouraged from other bullies to do the same. Most of us here are no teenagers any more and should know better.

Thank you Rafi. A little history will help you understand who "Eugunep" really is and why he jumps all over me, ICFHybrid, and a few others.

Before you become a forum member, Eugenep attacked me and used some pretty vulgar language and went into a diatribe of venomous language and personal attacks. Here is a sample of his assorted statements that he directed at me and other forum members:

Posted By eugenep on 28 Aug 2013 02:04 PM

asshole

crap

shut your trap

Your gristle

Get a life you loser

go crawl under a rock

your drivel

Ever since then he sits on the sidelines and waits for me or others like ICFHybrid to post something and then he comes out of the woodwork and starts his personal attacks. Instead of agreeing to disagree and instead of acting like a mature adult, he becomes an adolescent internet bully or "troll" as they are called, and starts on his personal attacks.

Recently he went after ICFHybrid because of the square footage of his home. In this thread he started up on ICFHybrid and then started up on me, attacking us both. Like any bully, he lacks confidence and gets pleasure from personally attacking people and pleasures in getting a rouse out of them. So now you know who he is and what he is all about. I've wasted enough time with him and like before, I will ignore him and his childish behavior. Like a real life bully or in this case an "internet troll", you must ignore them so they go away and go back under their bridge.

You always seems to forget that you attacked me on my very first post.  Just as I say, he has a very selective memory.  At least, I use my name. 
You are so funny.  You attacked this poster just like you attacked another poster about their design, and you criticize me.  I only attack you and icfhybrid because the two of you contribute very little to this forum except to criticize people.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 25 Jul 2014 01:46 AM

they are just harsh criticisms.

The idea of putting an open fireplace in a "green" home should draw harsh criticism. Why are you so sensitive to this? Do you have an abominable open fireplace?

Are you the same poster that was promoting yurts sometime back?

As I seem to have to repeat myself.  you are buiilding a massive 6,000 sq ft house with multiple heating sources in most likely a pristine area of Washington that had no house before relatively far from civilization, and you criticize someone else for not being green.  look in the mirror before you criticize others.  lbear and yourself offer no suggestions that could possibly satisfy the OP, but just flame just like now.

FYI, I don't have an open fireplace, but I doubt that you will believe me.  I do have a gas insert outside of my ICF home, so my interior is not compromised with a fireplace.  not that it matters.  again, it is not about me, but about the inconsistent levels of criticisms and unhelpful posting that you and lbear seem great at posting.

Really, kids!!?
Flame wars, in a thread about burning wood? 

Ever tried just sticking to facts, and never ascribing malice to that which could be explained by ignorance or incompetence?

Keeping it on-topic, the facts about open hearth fireplaces are that they are both grossly inefficient & highly polluting compared to other wood burning alternatives.  What you do with that is up to you, but the alternatives can be pretty good from both aesthetic & heating efficiency point of view, and thus considerably "greener" by most peoples' definitions.

Eugenepan, my house is a lot smaller than the one I should have built and I'm hurt that you don't recognize my personal sacrifice in the interest of saving scarce resources, but you don't see me attacking you personally or calling you names, do you?

Let me explain something to you. If you want to defend your choices with data, that's fine, but attacking the size of MY house has nothing to do with whether or not an open fireplace is a good idea.

And don't be so defensive if your ideas don't go over well. Take it in stride.

if the guy wants a fireplace let him have one, and give him advice to make it work well in an ICF home, or STFU and stay out of his thread.

Burning wood is carbon neutral, so even at 15% efficiency it is more green than electricity, natural gas, propane, or probably even solar (ever wonder what those chinese plants churning out panels dump into the environment?) even windmills destroy the view and kill bald eagles...

I agree Dana. I don't put much faith in any efficiency numbers as stated by wood burning device companies. It is unfortunate that independent test was done on the lowest efficiency breed of masonry heater and not even best of that contra flow breed. Bottom line, you really can't use even the best wood stove in an energy efficient home, they just release too much heat too quickly at their design operating point. Even the worst masonry heater solves that issue. If you live where your have your own personnal supply of endless renewable wood, masonry heaters are hard to beat. I would also say that our masonry heater reaches peak efficiency very quickly. You start it by lighting paper placed at top of the wood pile. It reaches white hot burn phase in a couple of minutes and 20 lbs of wood is gone in less than an hour.

Burning wood is carbon neutral, so even at 15% efficiency it is more green than electricity

It's the air pollution which led to the EPA getting involved.

Jeez! If the guy wants a fireplace, he should have a fireplace. Everyone gets so cranky on here.

Posted By Leon Possible on 25 Jul 2014 08:22 PM
Jeez! If the guy wants a fireplace, he should have a fireplace. Everyone gets so cranky on here.

Nobody's stopping him from getting a "standard, open wood burning fireplace." He posted a question on a green building forum about incorporating an extremely inefficient and gross polluting, "standard, open wood burning fireplace" into his house design. People responded advising him not to choose such a fireplace but to choose alternative designs that are not as bad as his original design choice.

It's like going on a Vegan Forum and asking how to roast a pig. The response shouldn't be surprising to his question.

We originally wanted a fireplace, but our ICF home is so small, and the Manual J numbers are such that wouldn't couldn't find anything small enough. Even a propane fireplace sealed to the outside puts out too much heat. We finally decided to axe the fireplace, although we might build a faux fireplace with an antique mantel and an electric insert. They make some surprisingly realistic electric inserts, with surprisingly high price tags to go along with them. We are going to finish a great room in our barn, and use a wood burner out there, probably half a dozen times a year.

Not to fan the flames (pun intended) but there are reasons to build ICF other than energy efficiency.

Just wanted to point out a possible design solution to the original poster. I assume it's the ambience you want from a wood burning fireplace, so you might consider putting it outside the home. I know this wasn't a good solution for jdebree who is in a much colder climate. But in my climate you can comfortably enjoy a fire on the covered porch from October to March. I have a large picture window in the living space which looks out onto the fireplace, for those guests who can't take 55F outdoor temps

so you might consider putting it outside the home.

I don't see what the problem is with just getting the proper sealed fireplace. They have glass fronts which provide all the ambience of an open fireplace without the danger, filth and inefficiency. I grew up with an open fireplace which we liked to use all the time and I find no difference between that experience and a glass front sealed unit. Except for the fact that the harder my father stoked the fire, the colder it got in the house.