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ICF leaking below grade, looking for tips on diagnosis
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AWebs
New Member
Posts:18
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| 26 Feb 2018 11:28 PM |
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Posted By dmaceld on 24 Feb 2018 07:03 AM
Posted By AWebs on 24 Feb 2018 12:30 AM
MTicf: Thanks for your advice, that's what I am trying to do since we can't dig yet.
I'm in Southern Ontario to answer your question :D
I am almost convinced that since the finishes in the house are excellent, that the builder would not have missed something significant like putting the waterproof membrane in. Although obviously we don't know for sure without looking.
I am just kind of hoping that water is somehow getting on top of the sill and that we can find the source.
Will give your recommendation a try and see what I uncover!
What about plumbing? Do you by any chance have plumbing in the wall above the leak areas? It's a long shot but maybe you've got water leaking from some bad joints. But you said there is no ceiling in the basement so you should be able to see the sill plate all around and get some idea of water coming down onto the sill, if in fact it is.
dmaceld: This is one thing I don't think we have, we can see all of the plumbing and none of it is embedded in the walls.
As mentioned we can see the sill, we have starting pulling insulation out so we can get to it. We have found mould and dampness behind the insulation and the top of the sill seems dry. I am staying positive for now and we are carrying on our investigations :( |
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ICFBdr
Basic Member
Posts:238
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| 28 Feb 2018 05:14 PM |
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Since the water is not showing where the attached garage is located, my guess is you have water intrusion through the windows/doors and/or sill plate connection (this is an ICF basement and framed main floor, correct?).
You said the sill plate and top of ICF/concrete is exposed? First step (no digging required!) would be to flash this part of the wall with membrane/metal/typar, etc. Be sure to get a shingle lap to allow gravity to keep the water on top (ie, under the siding, on top the will plate, on top parging - that is the grey stucco near the ground FYI).
There is no way to really check if windows are leaking (thermal imaging camera may work). Look closely at the windows. With exterior finish already complete, you can't see how the W&D were sealed to the wall, but if you see any gap (no matter how small) between the W&D/exterior finish (stucco finish???), I would use a clear exterior caulk/silicon to seal this up.
If it is a framed main floor and water is coming in through windows then finding its way into the basement, you would have wet insulation in the main floor walls that would need to be removed/replaced (assuming fiber glass batt).
Any pics of sill plate, windows, etc. would be helpful. At this point just a bunch of assumptions and throwing darts at a board..... |
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mojoe
New Member
Posts:79
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| 02 Mar 2018 02:00 PM |
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I think [hope] he meant the sill plate and top of the icf was exposed on the interior not the exterior. |
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AWebs
New Member
Posts:18
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| 07 Mar 2018 05:10 PM |
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Posted By ICFBdr on 28 Feb 2018 05:14 PM
Since the water is not showing where the attached garage is located, my guess is you have water intrusion through the windows/doors and/or sill plate connection (this is an ICF basement and framed main floor, correct?).
You said the sill plate and top of ICF/concrete is exposed? First step (no digging required!) would be to flash this part of the wall with membrane/metal/typar, etc. Be sure to get a shingle lap to allow gravity to keep the water on top (ie, under the siding, on top the will plate, on top parging - that is the grey stucco near the ground FYI).
There is no way to really check if windows are leaking (thermal imaging camera may work). Look closely at the windows. With exterior finish already complete, you can't see how the W&D were sealed to the wall, but if you see any gap (no matter how small) between the W&D/exterior finish (stucco finish???), I would use a clear exterior caulk/silicon to seal this up.
If it is a framed main floor and water is coming in through windows then finding its way into the basement, you would have wet insulation in the main floor walls that would need to be removed/replaced (assuming fiber glass batt).
Any pics of sill plate, windows, etc. would be helpful. At this point just a bunch of assumptions and throwing darts at a board.....
Thanks for your advice. You are right, it is an ICF basement and framed main floor. We are ruling out leaking windows as not seen any signs of water anywhere around/under the windows. No staining on the interior or anything anywhere, they are also all caulked. In addition, it is difficult for water to even get anywhere near the window in the first place due to the overhang of the roof.
There is no sign of water coming in on the main floor at all.
Having investigated further there is no water on top of the sill, this is covered by the house and not exposed to the elements.
We have now had some expert advice and I will post a comment below to explain what we have been told. |
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AWebs
New Member
Posts:18
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| 07 Mar 2018 05:12 PM |
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Posted By mojoe on 02 Mar 2018 02:00 PM
I think [hope] he meant the sill plate and top of the icf was exposed on the interior not the exterior.
I did, thanks for clarifying!
PS I am female |
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AWebs
New Member
Posts:18
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| 07 Mar 2018 05:37 PM |
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Thanks to all of you for asking questions and making suggestions. Your involvement has been extremely helpful, thanks for giving your time and expertise.
We have had a specialist in and here's what they concluded:
1. Cold spots are causing damp in some areas in the framed area just above the ICF, proper insulation will remedy the problem.
2. Water is leaking in from the sides or bottom of the foundation (not through the slab), it seems water is not currently able to reach the washed stone under the slab and drain into the sump.
Recommended solution:
Fix the issue internally by digging a narrow trench into the slab just inside the walls, install pipe and direct water into washed stone so it can reach the sump, or just drain away underground.
This would mean management of the water on the inside. The opinion of the expert is that the ICF has voids which means that it could have a honeycomb effect and although structurally safe, if any water touches the concrete it will be absorbed into the honeycomb rather than flow down the outside of the wall and be managed on the outside.
Therefore the cheapest and easiest option is to install the system mentioned.
The advantage of this approach is that we would not need to excavate on the exterior. Furthermore, taking steps to resolve the issue on the outside may not stop the water ingress anyway, it would also be very expensive and disruptive.
In other words, we may think we have fixed the problem, only for it to return when everything is closed up.
We have not yet decided what we will do. Just wanted to share what we have been told. The experts who came in have developed this drainage system based on constantly being called in to deal with these types of issues. Apparently they are fairly common due to bad construction methods, often people who do not understand what they are doing and therefore making mistakes.
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ICFBdr
Basic Member
Posts:238
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| 07 Mar 2018 07:02 PM |
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The other recommendation I would make is to cut inspection strips into the ICF where the water is showing up. A +/-4" vertical strip of EPS removed from the ICF to expose concrete will let you visually inspect the concrete. Any large amount of honeycombing could then be remedied. If no honeycombing is found after a couple inspections, I would think the remainder of the basement should be OK - if excessive voids/honeycombing are found, you may want to do inspections on more areas of basement. Alternatively, check the wall with a straight edge at various points around the basement. If you don't find any bowing of wall from backfill pressure, you likely have a structurally sound foundation. Voids can be found by simply tapping on the surface of the ICF - a hollow drumming sound can be heard if a void is present. |
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mojoe
New Member
Posts:79
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| 08 Mar 2018 04:22 PM |
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I have a personal aversion for the word "expert". This case reminded me of why. His "solution" is exactly what they did in the 17 and 1800's in New England where large cut granite and boulders were cobbled together for a foundation. The foundations were sound but allowed groundwater easy access which was channelled to a sump or a well in many cases. without seeing the layout and local topography, it's impossible to say. Maybe you live in a bowl with the land sloping up on all sides so there is no way for water to be directed away. Short of that, I think accepting water infiltration in a new house is out of the question. You probably have nice landscaping that you don't want damaged and don't want the mess and expense of digging around the foundation. Any "expert" that says it's impossible to waterproof a foundation from the outside is likely mistaken - unless you live in the above described "bowl". Adequate waterproofing/rain screen combined with a foundation drain that flows to daylight or an adequately sized dry well and/or pump in some cases should work just fine. Concrete is a porous material that will absorb and hold water that will contribute to mold growth - like you already have. It's like putting a band-aid on a deep gash. I wouldn't even consider it in a new house - but it's your house. Good luck. |
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 08 Mar 2018 06:03 PM |
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This reminds me why we avoid building basements and crawlspaces like the plague. The risk of this kind of issue isn’t worth obtaining below ground level living/storage space at a reduced $/sf in my opinion. I feel the same way about multi-level homes too. We always build our ICF buildings on engineered/elevated rock pad. This keep the floor above the site water table and this looks and landscapes better too. If a client wants a basement, we simply don’t bid it. Yes, a good builder can build good basements most of the time that stay dry for decades. However, the risk is never zero when you have a basement or crawlspace and using “good” and “builder” in the same sentence isn’t as common as it should be.
I would agree that inside water management would be a very disappointing solution to accept. However, sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to make things right. I suspect the builder who built this place decided to move out after discovering this issue. If so, that was a lousy thing to do. Sorry about your situation and I wish you good luck resolving it. I am a female too. |
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smartwall
Veteran Member
Posts:1209
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| 08 Mar 2018 08:38 PM |
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I totally disagree. I've been involved in icf foundations for a really long time. In fact I only do foundations now. A foundation is easy to waterproof if you use the right materials. My main water proofing product is dimpled membrane. Most on my competitors sell peel and stick. The only time I use peel and stick is if excavation shows a really bad water situation. Dimpled is about as full proof a system that you can install. The only thing that can foul it up, is if your excavator dumps sand between it and the icf. It cost less that p&s, can be installed the day of pour, and takes less than a fifth of the time to install. I have never had a leak using it. I can guarantee the original poster has p&s on the outside of the foundation. The only way to stop it full excavation. The other thing is to manage the water from inside. I did this on a leak complaint with a deck and a porch already built. We used a hot knife and created water trenches in the icf with the water being collected in a coupe of places in each wall. Used the hot knife to remove some of the foam at the base of the wall behind the slab. Cut sump wells in two opposite corners and pumped the water out the band joist. |
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smartwall
Veteran Member
Posts:1209
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| 08 Mar 2018 08:38 PM |
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I totally disagree. I've been involved in icf foundations for a really long time. In fact I only do foundations now. A foundation is easy to waterproof if you use the right materials. My main water proofing product is dimpled membrane. Most on my competitors sell peel and stick. The only time I use peel and stick is if excavation shows a really bad water situation. Dimpled is about as full proof a system that you can install. The only thing that can foul it up, is if your excavator dumps sand between it and the icf. It cost less that p&s, can be installed the day of pour, and takes less than a fifth of the time to install. I have never had a leak using it. I can guarantee the original poster has p&s on the outside of the foundation. The only way to stop it full excavation. The other thing is to manage the water from inside. I did this on a leak complaint with a deck and a porch already built. We used a hot knife and created water trenches in the icf with the water being collected in a coupe of places in each wall. Used the hot knife to remove some of the foam at the base of the wall behind the slab. Cut sump wells in two opposite corners and pumped the water out the band joist. |
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mojoe
New Member
Posts:79
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| 09 Mar 2018 02:21 PM |
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Allowing water to run down your interior walls is not something to "get over" - it's something that needs to be fixed. That's what a lousy builder says. Nothing personal - but if the shoe fits, Cinderella..... |
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smartwall
Veteran Member
Posts:1209
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| 09 Mar 2018 03:26 PM |
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I have to say that in the three remediation jobs that we did, none was a brook running inside the house. More like a annoying trickle only discenable by wiping your hand on the wall. The worst was a lady in central NH that contacted me because I was the closest Super Seal dealer. In her case she excavated the entire exterior for the foundation. When I received her pictures I was shocked. Not only had the p&s been installed with puckers in the seams but the worst was the fact that the excavator had simply push the fill back against the wall May not be a problem with sand or loam soil without rocks, but from the pictures you could see the reason for the designation of NH as the 'Granite State." Not just stones, but boulders had punctured the p&s. Stupid. In 5 hours I solved the problem. Repaired the p&s and put 8' of Super Seal dimpled over the complete wall. Peel and stick is a stupid product to trust your basement with when there is a better alternative . |
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Dilettante
Advanced Member
Posts:503
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| 10 Mar 2018 08:20 AM |
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Peel and stick has it's place. Properly applied.
So does DM.
The thing is, they're not replacements for one another.
They're complementary technologies.
P&S, tar-based, and fluid applied membranes are waterproofing systems (or a capillary action inhibitor). Designed to directly deny water access to the underlying wall.
In cases of prolonged excess water, however, you begin running into other problems with the foundation (hydrostatic pressure, etc) that compromise the walls in other ways, leading to secondary failure of the waterproofing system.
DM is a water control system. By itself, it waterproofs NOTHING.
In cases of prolonged excess water, the water eventually overcomes the drainage capacity of the membrane through straight up saturation. At this point, the water has direct access to the wall surface, and capillary action takes over.
So, it's not a matter of "which is superior". Because they're not comparable.
You want BOTH types of system in place. Waterproofing and water control. |
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smartwall
Veteran Member
Posts:1209
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| 10 Mar 2018 01:32 PM |
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Great in theory, but I've used dimpled on over 300 foundations since 2004 with no leaks. I still would use it over p&s any day. |
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Dilettante
Advanced Member
Posts:503
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| 11 Mar 2018 01:57 AM |
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Again, are you coating the wall with anything?
Or are you just nailing/screwing DM to bare/freshly excavated walls |
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MTicf
New Member
Posts:41
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| 11 Mar 2018 03:36 PM |
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Awebs- depending on your financial situation...and perhaps on how much you love your new house, I would choose between 2 options if I were in your shoes.
There is no way I would live in a house with internal water management. Too much opportunity for an uncomfortable (or unhealthy) environment.
Since it was recommended by an expert, you could repair the water problem as advised. Get it in writing, follow the prescribed method, repair the internal Sheetrock, then put the house up for sale. You could sell without disclosure, since you remedied the problem as proscribed by an expert. Make sure you have mold-Free spore tests to prove it. The sump pumps are there for the next buyer to see, so there is no non-disclosure issue beyond your own conscience.
Or, dig around the exposed 3 outside walls, make sure you have a complete ‘peel’n’stick’ barrier, add dimple-board and a footing drain(either run to daylight if you have the slope, or into an exterior sump that can be pumped dry), finally, make sure your downspouts drain runoff to at least 10’ From the house, and preferably further. Then make sure the inside is good and dry, and fix the drywall. You can stay in the house knowing that you will have peace until the next aspect of your builder’s shoddy workmanship reveals itself.
Neither of these are great options, since this builder unloaded his incompetence on you. Sorry! |
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mojoe
New Member
Posts:79
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| 11 Mar 2018 04:14 PM |
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I'm no "expert" on what constitutes a legal disclosure but I think it may vary. I think being honest is the best policy in spite of the fact that your "builder" may have been less than honest with you. The "expert" who gave you the advice about how to handle your
problem is certainly no "expert" - he is a hack looking for the easiest way out with the least liability for himself. The only remedy for not doing something right the first time is doing it right the second time. Anything less is going to be problems. It's no big dilemma, the answer is obvious. There may just be a little difficulty accepting the inevitable. Do yourself a favor and do the right thing - or learn again what happens when you don't.
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icfbound
Basic Member
Posts:120
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| 11 Mar 2018 06:27 PM |
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What constitutes legal disclosure or intent to defraud largely depends on the aggressiveness and competence of the attorney pursuing the matter. I am confident I could successfully sue this builder for remedy assuming he is still in business and has not declared bankruptcy like a lot of these scumbags do like our current president. I agree with Borst basements are best avoided when possible. Yeah hard to avoid if you are building a large house on postage stamp lot like many people are willing to do or have to do because of their circumstances. I disagree with Borst and other ICF advocates that ICF is the best way to build. Built my large ranch with masonry and wood frame double walls filled with rock wool insulation to get R60. Got the wool for free as barter arrangement so a no brainer for me. Like basements there is no guarantee ICF isn’t going to turn out like shit and then you are stuck with something crazy expensive to remedy. |
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 12 Mar 2018 03:19 PM |
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Just to be 100% clear, we don’t advocate using ICF in all locations. There are a multitude of ways to construct an energy efficient building envelope these days. We prefer ICF in our southern OR low humidity diurnal climate and wildfire prone area because of the beneficial thermal mass effect negating the need for any AC and the increased fire resistance. We don’t like basements or multi levels because we prefer homes that provide maximum livability at all ages. I will also say that we learned a lot about ICF construction technique from Smartwall over the years and if I were to build an ICF basement, I wouldn’t hesitate to trust his advice. Here's more info about SSDM"
Super Seal Dimpled Membrane |
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