ICF Nightmare, walls out of plumb by up to 2.75"
Last Post 15 Aug 2024 03:45 AM by UticaTech. 35 Replies.
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Steve MercerUser is Offline
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22 Feb 2024 03:31 AM
Normally you brace from the inside but it is not an absolute requirement. With the proper bracing it is far easier to push with your ICF braces that to try to pull a wall back towards the braces. we like to start with the wall slightly leaning towards the ICF braces that way as we pour we can push the wall into plumb as we go. We routinely brace from the outside of the wall but you gotta know what your doing!
stu_stompUser is Offline
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26 Feb 2024 02:59 AM
Update:
Subcontractor has agreed to a full refund ($100K+) and to cover the entire cost of full demolition, replacement of vertical rebar from stem wall, and all cleanup/disposal.
Needless to say, we are relieved with this decision.
However, we are concerned about salvaging the footer/stem wall/slab during the demo.

smartwallUser is Offline
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26 Feb 2024 01:42 PM
Nice to see you have a resolution to your problem. Hope for graveling at the bottom of the wall. Was there rebar coming out of the slab ? Trouble is even crappy concrete sticks. It amazes me that a newbie wouldn't ask the distributor for help and guidance..
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01 Mar 2024 05:10 PM
Posted By stu_stomp on 26 Feb 2024 02:59 AM
Update:
Subcontractor has agreed to a full refund ($100K+) and to cover the entire cost of full demolition, replacement of vertical rebar from stem wall, and all cleanup/disposal.
Needless to say, we are relieved with this decision.
However, we are concerned about salvaging the footer/stem wall/slab during the demo.


Send pics once completed. I am curious as to how they will leave the stem wall up after demo.

What are you plans after demo? Will you do another ICF wall or go wood frame? If ICF, do you have a qualified ICF contractor lined up?
stu_stompUser is Offline
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01 Mar 2024 09:33 PM
The demo plan is to munch away the top of the walls until there's only about 2-3 ft of wall remaining. Then horizontally cut between the stem wall and ICF wall, deep enough to sever the rebar. Followed by munching away the rest. New vertical rebar will be epoxied into the remaining stem wall. I have two legit ICF contractors bidding on ICF walls attempt 2.0, and am 100% confident in their abilities going forward.
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01 Apr 2024 07:23 PM
Making progress on demo. It's been 4 weeks and at least 2 more to go. It looks awful, but the crew is doing a good job in terms of not damaging the slab or stem wall. Link to updated photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1cFCHDOHkKw2ZpxYybVH3I8dhot4bDV7m?usp=sharing
smartwallUser is Offline
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02 Apr 2024 11:44 AM
Did you get a chance to see what the insides looked like?
stu_stompUser is Offline
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03 Apr 2024 07:14 AM
The concrete looks pretty good, but with some noticeable "layering" and variation, likely due to the mix not flowing well later in the day. There are also some major voids under some of the window sills. My not-so-expert opinion is that the integrity of the structure was in tact, especially considering that ICF with rebar is so overkill for this type of structure. The wife and I are looking forward to the day when this build is no longer going backwards and we're actually making progress again. Patience. I've got 2 premier ICF subs (that I have full confidence in) to chose from here in the next week or so.
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03 Apr 2024 01:30 PM
You mentioned the rebar overkill. Did anyone consult the Prescriptive Method for proper rebar placement and quantity? Under windows definitely needs to be vibrated, as well as the whole job. An icf pour is more than just filling to the top.
stu_stompUser is Offline
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03 Apr 2024 09:08 PM
Rebar is every 30" - 32", both horizontal and vertical. Spaced closer to 6" - 8" on headers. Couple that with 6" of concrete core, and it seems overkill for a single story home...just the way I like it !!! I say overkill because before reviewing the internals, I was concerned about the integrity of the pour, but there's a significant factor of safety built into the ICF system.
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04 Apr 2024 03:41 PM
That doesn't sound like overkill to me...and wouldn't pass inspection in our area. We would typically do 12" vertical spacing using single #4 overlapping and tying to the footing dowels using short plastic chases. We would typically do 16" horizontal spacing (i.e., every ICF block course height) using single #4 alternating to inside and outside the verticals each course. Headers would typically be double #6 or #7 on top with double #6 or #7 on bottom using #4 stirrups to form sort of a cage structure. And we would sometimes add Helix micro rebar to the concrete mix to further boost overall concrete tension strength. We typically used 5000 psi compressive strength concrete too. But we did our ICF construction in a high seismic area...and we also often designed/constructed to exceed code as well...and doing all this didn't cost significantly more either. But like Smartwall indicated, there is a prescriptive method that may be used in many jurisdictions. And one can also have a licensed structure engineer design it to specific seismic levels too. But one should definitely use a well-defined and approved rebar schedule for the locality.

Gayle
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
tynickelUser is Offline
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16 Apr 2024 06:44 PM
That is really too bad, we have to do some fixes over the years for similar pours. They just did not brace properly, nor had enough. sloppy work at best.
Been a part of Green Building TALK since 2008

Experienced GC in Ontario Canada, California Lic GC and ICF builder.
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DilettanteUser is Offline
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25 Apr 2024 10:32 AM
VERY heartening to see a contractor, OBVIOUSLY out of their depth  own up to their screw-ups  and make restitution.

Again, engineer.  And a new contractor, both with ICF experience.

Unfortunately, what you don't get back is the TIME.
stu_stompUser is Offline
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23 May 2024 07:43 PM
Link to updated photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rBj9nVfX1DqT5wRkWAgn4p_1bFgsaZEi?usp=sharing Demolition took 11 weeks and upon completion, the GC was removed from the job. The link provides photos of after demo and the start of the new ICF build. Much different this time around with a staff that understands and has significant expertise in the ICF process.
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26 May 2024 05:44 AM
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/9dn80imukhlkmunk5ko0e/ACQnanoXzY3VJJUxANJeZBo?rlkey=oeu8e6lfcrsf3mj11cvr4np1m&st=03hnfcfd&dl=0

ICF redo photos in Dropbox
UticaTechUser is Offline
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15 Aug 2024 03:45 AM
@Gayle Wow, I thought mine was over engineered... I just finished FoxBlocks 6" core walls + Insul-Deck roof in South Florida. Engineer requested #4 every 16" horizontally and #5 every 4' (plus every corner) vertically. On the bottom, the footings, CMU block stem wall and slab. I wish the block stem wall was ICF, but they don't recommend sub-surface ICF for the fear of invisible termite pathways.
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