Joe,

OK. Don't tease us. At least give us the picture. And then please give us a lesson in physics. Now not having been in the middle of a tornado since I was two, I can't explain exactly what happens and where, but am told that a straw can be driven through a tree and that two homes side by side can have one devastated and the other is not touched. So I am not sure what anecdotel evidence will make me jump on the ICF only band wagon, but I would like to see the results.

I think I found his website. www.rfbhomes.com

ICF Contractor

Hey all, just wanted to stop in for a second and say thanks for all of the responses in here. I've spent the weekend working on current house projects so I haven't had a lot of time to work on the new house projects. =-)

Can anyone point me in the direction of someone who could give me some good advice on installing/designing a radiant heat system and how it would work in conjunction with a GSHP?

Kellee, I'll definitely email you when I get a few seconds to get my thoughts/questions straight.

John

Do we get to see the anecdotal pictures of the house?

"Everybody.
I dont come here often becasue I am strictly an ICF builder. The reason I chose ICF can best be explained by looking at a picture that is posted on the second page my web site.
It shows what is left of 2 block houses, 2 block and stick houses, one Sip house and 1 ICF house after a tornado visited them."

that is very deceptive advertising. it is clear by looking at the roof of the icf house that it did not get a direct hit by the tornado.

I can understand people who is for ICF or SIP or Both do some sale pitch here. But I do not understand the people who is against for the Green talk doing here.

Ok we have an allegation that the SIP house couldn't stand next to the ICF house but....


"An ICF house being built in Wisconsin, and 5 stick built homes flattened by a tornado!"

apparently the premise is false.

If you were to with build Sips above a icf basement with a concrete floor, you've got it pretty right . Well partly there.  What you have built is a concrete foundation/ storm shelter and main level floor with no nose bleeds. No bad.... and best yet you have a ready made thermal mass slab for radiant heat. Before you add the sips/wood frame think about connecting the radiant to a geothermal system as mentioned earlier in the post. The concrete/geoconnection will increase your heat pump efficiencies from a standard (COP 3 to over 5). Meaning 5 times more heat for your dollar. I suppose if you install a extra high quality gasket underneath the sips you may not have any air leaks near your feet for a good while, unless the ants decide the foam would be a nice place to nest and chew through the osb and into the foam .    You will also be required to use the best sealant around all windows/doors, panel connections and all those connectors. Or you will have a lot of air infiltration.   With ICf you only have to vi berate the concrete to stop air infiltration and seal the windows/doors . There are no gaskets necessary, either at the sill or even at the roof plate.   It is just built in the system. .... And I love that nagging R-value dig. What is the R-value of a sips wall system when it is 15 degrees Below zero with all those connectors.   The sip I see in Michigan melt a lot of snow at very construction joint , even the ones we have installed. And we did each connection to specs.

Hey all!  It's been awhile and I've been doing research.

I am now incredibly frustrated.

So I talk to and ICF rep and get some rough estimates on cost...

$3.25   per sq foot ICF
$1        per sq foot
$3        per sq foot labor

$85      per cubic yard concrete (3000 PSI)

now I realize I have to add pumper truck and shoring rental to this, but that gives me a rough cost of $9 and change for the 1st floor walls and $10 and change for the basement.

Now if I factor out labor (ie I want to set the forms myself) it drops down to between $6 - 7 per sq foot of wall.

That comes out to about $22K for the basement and first floor (not counting footings or rough lumber).  That breaks out to $13K for the basement (8" walls) and $9K for the first floor (6" walls).

By contrast the SIPs estimate I got comes out to $16K.  Now that's a hard comparison because that includes the first floor and second floor.  Of course because of the slope of the roof, there are not a lot of second floor walls other than the gable end and a dormer facing.  The other hard part of this is that quote is all 8' SIPS.  What I really need to do is bring the SIPs down to the foundation level to cover the floor trusses.   That means I need 11' SIP walls on the first floor to get the 9 foot ceilings on the first floor.

It looks like building with ICFs is going to be really competitive with SIPs which surprises me a little.  Any thoughts?

I've place my floorplans as PDFs here if anyone is interested...

First Floor - http://www.mediafire.com/?02rz3gitzm2
Second Floor - http://www.mediafire.com/?6zqthunxzm3
Basement - http://www.mediafire.com/?5j2xyimz22y
Section View - http://www.mediafire.com/?bjnddqzkwiy
West Elevation - http://www.mediafire.com/?b2mnttd33jd
East Elevation - http://www.mediafire.com/?5ymwi0ndmq3
South Elevation - http://www.mediafire.com/?9dzzdfi0ykq
North Elevation - http://www.mediafire.com/?5f01trmzqqr


*fixed URLS

And to add to this now the engineer is saying that calculating the loads and lintels will double his price I'm paying if I go the SIPS route... $6K or more now.

John

You could also either hang the trusses from the ICF's, or use a SIP rim only, and start the walls from the 1st floor deck.


The reason is that you are providing the ICF labor, which most homeowners won't do.

You could also use SIPS for the basement walkout walls. And, hopefully, you are not restricted to 8' SIP wall heights(any height s/b possible).

yeah, it looks like that'll be the way I end up going.  I was originally looking at 10" foundation walls, but I think I'm going to go with 8" (saves $2500).


I don't know if the cost difference between 8' and 9' SIPs is just 1/8th more or if it'll be greater than that.

john

John,
Most manufacturers price by the square foot, so you shouldn't see an upcharge by going to taller walls. It s/b 1/8 more.

The difference between 8' and 9' SIPs depends on the manufacturer and the panels they supply, and the equipment they use and whatever other variable is thrown into the mix. 4 X 8 panels can be less expensive if they are readily stocked. 9' panels can be more expensive if cut from jumbo 8 X 24 panels. The amount of labor and time to produce a panel is determined by the press. Some smaller panel companies may only produce 8 x 24 panels and cut smaller pieces. But supply and demand will no doubt come into play when specifying panels. And since OSB prices are a variable, they no doubt will roll into the price of the panel even though there may not be a significant difference in the sq ft price.

Just a quick 2 cents. Please take note of the possible problems we face in FL.as a consideration to icf benefits. Having seen in person what happened when Katrinas 25 ft. storm surge and 140+ mph. winds did to anything that wasn't concrete, it will cause you pause and a common sense decision on the method of your construction. All the other benefits are gravy when added to strength. Costs are all relative at that point.

What I could never understand about ICF builders is why they fall short when they get to the roof and go with conventional trusses? ... this is the weak point of the structure

to quote:

"....jc
If you're not building with SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?"

FlaICF - I live in Nebraska and while Tornados don't have nearly the footprint of a hurricane it is still a real concern. You say costs are relative, but when it comes to either I can build the house or I can't build the house costs become a little more important to me.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the ICF price estimates I posted above? High, low, about right?

In other news, I've been hoping to put a Radiant floor in as well. I just got the bid back and just the Therma Floor installation is about $1.75 a sq ft. Add to that the $20,000 proposal for the radiant (that's with 5 hours of installer time and me installing the rest myself) it's a pricey system. Add to that I still have to have a cooling system installed in the place... ouch


John

Just a note to bonzai - there are a lot more HVAC forums out there than good SIP forums but the best one I have found yet for radiant heat troubleshooting / general discussion is http://radnet.groupee.net/eve/forums/a/frm/f/4771065301.

It is remarkably similar to SIPWEB as a forum - unlike a lot of the 'no-DIYers allowed' HVAC forums the members don't mind answering questions from newbies to the field. If you have the time and the patience to read skim the topics and speed read the posts you will be fairly educated about radiant heat before you even ask any questions, and some of the posts have good links to design software/ideas for radiant heat. I've heard say it is cheaper to learn from other folks' mistakes and this is a great place to do it.

P.S. Somebody asked about hanging joists between panels - I am hanging my second floor next week between my 18' high panels - Imperial put 2x6 blocking flat on the inside of the panels before they were foamed (polyurethane injected) and I am fastening heavy duty Simpson hangars through the OSB into the blocking. I don't know what kind of max joist load the panels could support but my floor is engineered to 20 psf dll (for hardi-board/ceramic tile) instead of the standard 10. I guess the hanging between/hanging over quandary can only be answered by the engineer at the panel factory because they are all so different (thickness/foam type/general design etc). I am hanging between because 1) I can, 2) so I do not have to foam the rim, and 3) because it speeds up the whole process to go with full height panels.

Hope this helps.

As per the last posting, this article discusses the engineering nuumbers behaind the idea of hanging a floor between SIP walls:

http://www.sipweb.com/monitor/bc_12.1.2001.asp

Bonzai- I cannot comment on the materials costs or labor cost in your part of the country. Some of your numbers look viable. It is your home and certainly your budget that will determine how and what you build. It is my opinion that the cost to build an icf concrete home by comparison to other methods is minimal in the big picture. Obtaining the peace of mind and benefits derived from a concrete home that you and your family will be residing in, presumably for a long time, are relative to your decision on whether to construct this way. Your finished product will speak for itself over the years, both in its longevity and efficiency. GR