Torben,
well put , tell us how you feel about the fish scale....

It's pretty obvious that guys who make SIPS for a living feel a little threatened when the exact procedures and methods are put out there for folks to see. These methods are those that were used by a manufacturer I was associated with. This is not rocket science. I'm hoping that folks will understand how simple these panels are to build and they might be interested in starting companies of their own. Under IRC regulations, they can build 4 X 8 panels all day long without the onerous testing requirements placed on builders of jumbos. A qualified engineer who is IRC approved can certify a production line of these panels and the monthly expense is not that much. My goal is to get people excited about making panels and providing them with the necessary resources, not about safeguarding the profits of the large manufacturers who'll stop at nothing to inhibit new competitors from entering the industry.

I'm still trying to figure out how many fingers you would have left after cutting out a 2-inch by 2-inch square piece of SIP panel. Unless of course 4 square inches is actually measured as 4-inches by 4 inches. I guess that is just a pesky detail when you consider your only measuring the results of the roughness of your saw blade (as opposed to the strength of the glue).

Posted By the_postman on 09 Dec 2013 04:41 PM
It's pretty obvious that guys who make SIPS for a living feel a little threatened when the exact procedures and methods are put out there for folks to see. These methods are those that were used by a manufacturer I was associated with. This is not rocket science. I'm hoping that folks will understand how simple these panels are to build and they might be interested in starting companies of their own. Under IRC regulations, they can build 4 X 8 panels all day long without the onerous testing requirements placed on builders of jumbos. A qualified engineer who is IRC approved can certify a production line of these panels and the monthly expense is not that much. My goal is to get people excited about making panels and providing them with the necessary resources, not about safeguarding the profits of the large manufacturers who'll stop at nothing to inhibit new competitors from entering the industry.

I am not sure who you are talking about? because so far you have only heard from SIP panel installers, not from any manufacturers, if your so "Gung - Ho" about doing it then just quit your jabber jawin and just build them, but so far all I have heard is talkin and no one doin the walkin!

Why are you in the SIP industry so protective? Its obvious that we have ruffled your delicate feathers and I cant understand why? Right now you have a SIPs association. Yes, this association defines a SIP as foam between two pieces of OSB. However, this association also states there are no industry standards. Why is that? The reality is that the SIPs industry is young. Its not well established yet. However, anyone can become a member of the association. Toben, Jelly Lbear, Kavala, are you guys members? With no standards, no one, not even this SIPs association is a real authority on SIPS.

Now we have Jelly telling me what I describe for a SIP is not a SIP. This is a very narrow view which in addition to the attitudes shown by industry insiders will hurt the advancement of the SIPs industry. Its like saying "there is only one way to make an airplane."

The name SIP, structural insulated panels gives me the idea that there is more than one way to make this panel. I think I will start a new association for the block of foam with 2x material and call it the "Better SIPS Association" better yet, maybe I will include all the different types of SIPs to include the OSB sandwich.

You guys really need to get over yourselves. You are really only talking about a piece of foam between 2 pieces of glued together scrap wood. Its not rocket science. You guys are actually insulted by the idea that someone outside the industry would actually consider making SIPs. OK Torben, you are an engineer and you know to calculate stresses and some about the material. Does that mean we dont? What are the minimum and maximum numbers for delamination? Where is the safe zone? You guys have done nothing to add to this conversation but throw out insults. Sheesh grow up. Pencils Torben. Really?

9 times out of 10 when a DIYer does something, he or she will overbuild it. Postman, I thank you for your posts. They are great.

The only thing we are really talking about is gluing the OSB to the EPS. You industry guys are saying that no one can do it other than a SIPs manufacturer. None of you have offered anything that can convince me that this is true.

Dont get me wrong... There are some people out there who should not attempt this. These are the same people who should not be building a house. However, what the people on this board are trying to do is do it right. We are exchanging ideas to help each other out because we want them to do it right. We want to do it right. I will not put my family in a house I dont feel is safe. I wouldnt want you to put your family in a house that was not safe. However, for the most part, people who are using this board and this string to get and share information have shown they want to do it right and will take the steps to do it right. Research is the first step in doing it right. This is the first step. Industry guys... the DIYer will not hurt your industry. People like you will and have. At least in my book.

Posted By Blayden on 09 Dec 2013 05:59 PM
Why are you in the SIP industry so protective? Its obvious that we have ruffled your delicate feathers and I cant understand why? Right now you have a SIPs association. Yes, this association defines a SIP as foam between two pieces of OSB. However, this association also states there are no industry standards. Why is that? The reality is that the SIPs industry is young. Its not well established yet. However, anyone can become a member of the association. Toben, Jelly Lbear, Kavala, are you guys members? With no standards, no one, not even this SIPs association is a real authority on SIPS.

Now we have Jelly telling me what I describe for a SIP is not a SIP. This is a very narrow view which in addition to the attitudes shown by industry insiders will hurt the advancement of the SIPs industry. Its like saying "there is only one way to make an airplane."

The name SIP, structural insulated panels gives me the idea that there is more than one way to make this panel. I think I will start a new association for the block of foam with 2x material and call it the "Better SIPS Association" better yet, maybe I will include all the different types of SIPs to include the OSB sandwich.

You guys really need to get over yourselves. You are really only talking about a piece of foam between 2 pieces of glued together scrap wood. Its not rocket science. You guys are actually insulted by the idea that someone outside the industry would actually consider making SIPs. OK Torben, you are an engineer and you know to calculate stresses and some about the material. Does that mean we dont? What are the minimum and maximum numbers for delamination? Where is the safe zone? You guys have done nothing to add to this conversation but throw out insults. Sheesh grow up. Pencils Torben. Really?

Dont get me wrong... There are some people out there who should not attempt this. These are the same people who should not be building a house. However, what the people on this board are trying to do is do it right. We are exchanging ideas to help each other out because we want them to do it right. We want to do it right. I will not put my family in a house I dont feel is safe. I wouldnt want you to put your family in a house that was not safe. However, for the most part, people who are using this board and this string to get and share information have shown they want to do it right and will take the steps to do it right. Research is the first step in doing it right. This is the first step. Industry guys... the DIYer will not hurt your industry. People like you will and have. At least in my book.

Interesting that two people appear out of nowhere, both new posters, both with about 10 posts at this time. Both posters are talking up DIY SIPs and attacking those who question the safety and reliability of doing a DIY SIP. Are you here to sell us something? What are your intentions? I have my theories but it I believe you are here to solicit sales for SIP supplies.

You also stated, "Its obvious that we have ruffled your delicate feathers..." and who is "we"? Your business partner or your fake pseudo-forum name? Call me skeptical but two new members (Blayden & The_postman), both with eerily the same posting style & verbiage and both with 6-9 posts. I believe Blayden and The_Postman are the same person or they are your business partner/friend.

You are not being taken seriously because you are a rookie/newbie poster with less than 10 posts and the only posts you are making is about DIY SIPs. Right off the bat, post#1, you  attacked anyone questioning the safety and ability to build your own SIP. Your condescending words only deters from your credibility. With statements like, "we have ruffled your delicate feathers" from a newbie to people who have been on this forum for over 3+ years is not a good way to earn ones respect. BTW - I also have no affiliation with any SIP company.

Attacking Torben who is an engineer and attacking long-time forum members has just solidified your position and nobody will take you seriously anymore. You have set the tone and have made yourself out to be without credibility, egotistical, arrogant, condescending and fill in the blank. Time to go away.

Next time try and tone it down, especially as a newbie. Maybe when you create your other fake forum name and come back, you can try and have a better thread posting model than what you did here. A little humility goes a long way for a new member, if you want to be taken seriously as a inquisitive home builder. Telling people with 3,000+ posts that they are wrong and stupid by a newbie with 2 posts is not a way to earn credibility and respect.

There are lots of guys building composite airplanes, cars, and boats.

All of which are several thousand times more complex and difficult that gluing a piece of foam between 2 sheets of osb.

There is nothing high tech or difficult about the process

To insinuate otherwise is ludicrous

Lbear, if you follow this thread back to the beginning, you'll find that I helped initiate this conversation three or four years ago. The fact that you accuse me of having some sort of financial interest in this thread really says more about you than it does me. I am simply a devotee of SIPs and at one time, I looked into becoming a manufacturer because I believe that a stick-built house is a waste of time and money. I'll do anything I can to spread the gospel of SIPs and I'll share all that I learned along the way....at no charge (not everyone does stuff just for money)

WOW feathers are ruffled.... I am a newbie to this forum. So, let me get this straight Lbear, number of posts equal credibility. Hmmm. I called it like I saw it. And, it seems like I definitely pushed your buttons. I dont feel bad about it. Nor do I worry about your respect. I didnt like the way you guys were talking to people who simply wanted information, real information. You guys came on here acting like bullies and little kids. I have asked a number of times for you industry guys to post real data about the dangers of a DIY SIP or even the dangers that were found testing their own products. None of you have posted anything to back up your positions. You just say DIY cant and should not do it. Sorry everyone Didnt mean to turn this thread into a pissing match.

Lbear, my first post on this topic was 23 December 2007 so I'm not a newbie and I have no association with anyone on this thread though I remember Chris from the very beginning. No conspiracy or hidden agenda.....

Blayden/Postman, There are a lot of us who participate on this site with no relation to SIPA. We have built or are building our SIP houses DIY. You get easily offended by others warning you that trying to assemble your own panels is a bad idea. Then you try to allege our warnings are based on our financial interests? You have managed to change my mind. You've convinced me that you should do DIY panels. Please post pictures.

Torben, my point exactly, for years we have heard this conversation , but never seen a photo of someone actually doing it. I wish they would put up or shut up!

I don’t have a horse in this race as I have little experience fabricating DIY SIPs. I also believe ICF to be longer lasting and therefore a more green approach for building construction. However, it would be nice to see more actual details on how SIPs could be affordably and properly DIY fabricated. It would be even nicer to see photos of DIY SIPs actually being used to construct a building that passes code/inspection with the GC or builder's company sign in the foreground.

I will say that research has clearly shown that there is little correlation between forum post count and actual knowledge or competence. Some forums turn off this metric for just this reason. You don’t have to look very far in this forum to see that there are a couple individuals who hardly ever post correctly to anything but still always post gibberish to everything, apparently so as to get their post count high in an attempt to acquire some credibility or respect where little has been earned/deserved. I personally have much more respect for a well written response that simply correctly answers or properly addresses the OP question or situation…even if it is the first post from a so called “newbie”. If one is totally ignorant of a thread subject and doesn’t even have the basic skills to compose a written response, one should seriously consider not posting to that thread and perhaps consider finding another hobby too.

BTW, nice photo Chris and entirely appropriate

Here are the specifications for the foam cores:

• EPS foam shall be virgin B bead, one-pound density (0.95 minimum), aged board.

• Cuts shall be square and parallel.

• Standard dimensions and tolerances:

• 3 11/16” (+1/16”, -0”) X 48 ⅛” (+/- 1/16”) X 192 ⅜” (+/- 1/16”)
• 5 11/16” (+1/16”, -0”) X 48 ⅛” (+/- 1/16”) X 192 ⅜” (+/- 1/16”)
• 7 7/16” (+1/16”, -0”) X 48 ⅛” (+/- 1/16”) X 192 ⅜” (+/- 1/16”)
• 9 7/16” (+1/16”, -0”) X 48 ⅛” (+/- 1/16”) X 192 ⅜” (+/- 1/16”)
• 11 7/16” (+1/16”, -0”) X 48 ⅛” (+/- 1/16”) X 192 ⅜” (+/- 1/16”)

• Shall have third party inspection stamps (UL or RADCO) on at least one 48 ⅛” end of every sheet.

• EPS foam shall be treated for resistance to fire, mold.

• EPS foam shall be free of dips, hollows and steps.

• EPS foam shall be shipped in a closed van, stacked and not wrapped with protection from floor debris.

With regard to DIY. It is clear that almost everything that we use in the construction trade was at one time home made or if you prefer, shop made.
I remember roof truss made in the shop or out on a level lawn with plywood gussets. It was a great day when gang press gussets and software that could account for every span and joint in seconds came along.
cmu started of as home made just as brick did.
The first ICF's were just sheet foam with ties.
Many of these initial offerings had to be field engineered and stamped as such.
Nobody went out and built a multi million dollar plant to produce their first proto type. It was home built so to speak. So really, there is no reason why someone can't build their own sips. The question is "can you do it fast or cheaper and better then the multi million dollar factory?

Hey Blayden I'm just trying to look out for you man. A SIP is a structural panel with certain capabilities. One can't just glue some foam and strand board together. But hey if you could do it DIY safely and legally for less than a manufacturer can, post pics! You're not talking to the establishment here - I was a DIY installer.

Jelly, I appreciate it. I really do. I understand the concept. Like Postman has posted, it takes special glue, some special preparations (well not to many), and careful work to put together a SIP. Ok, lets move on. I admit I can kick a dead horse so many times that it will get up and run away.

I have read back to the beginning of this string and along the way, we got side tracked with SIPs. This post was originally about making insulated panels that were not load bearing. Any thoughts about a good design for a non load bearing insulated panel?

What about block of Styrofoam with pre-cut recesses for studs and top / bottom plates so it slides down into framing before sheathing?

Posted By [email protected] on 27 Dec 2013 11:58 AM
What about block of Styrofoam with pre-cut recesses for studs and top / bottom plates so it slides down into framing before sheathing?

Yea, thats not a SIP, its a common frame wall

I registered simply to comment on this thread.

Some background: I have been making things out of composites since the 1980's, both as a professional and as a hobby. I have built ocean going yachts, racing one design boats, amateur & professional race cars - quite a lot of it out of foam cored laminates in wood, fiberglass & carbon fiber. Sometimes with access to advanced pre-pregs & autoclaves, sometimes in a back yard with a paintbrush.

While I respect the experience of people who are doing SIPs commercially, I think krom is absolutely right in saying that DIY SIPs are nothing special and easily buildable by DIYers. The reality is that loads on SIPs in buildings are nothing compared to the loads put on composites in marine & aerospace environments and plenty of 'amateurs' successfully build both boats & plans.

It's important to keep in mind that most 'professionals' were once amateurs and they became professionals through experience, learning and jumping through hoops. The people on this thread are doing just that and they should be applauded for that. If you don't want to teach, that's fine, but there is no reason to be condescending. Building codes & industry standards did not come out of a vacuum, they came out people experimenting and historical knowledge, and then sharing what they found - exactly what the DIYers are doing.

So, if you are building your own SIPs, good for you. The professionals have pointed out some valuable things

- Test your products (to standards if available)
- Document your process
- Make things repeatable
- Have some sort of QA process

Doing these things would give you most of what a 'professional' operation would get you. That said, it would still probably be cheaper to buy them off the shelf, regardless of the manufacturers margins...

There is a lot of DIY work that is hugely valuable and widely used in industry - most modern PLCs have, at the core, software built by a DIY, volunteer community, and that's what runs your professional SIP factories. Never mind almost all of the internet and quite a lot of the software in your car.