Has anyone heard of a home doing half its roof using a Steel SIP (vaulted ceiling area) and then the other half with a wood truss design (non-vaulted area)?

It can be done , we have built additions onto conventional framed homes , but why mix it with inferior wood frame?

Posted By cmkavala on 15 Apr 2012 09:23 PM
It can be done , we have built additions onto conventional framed homes , but why mix it with inferior wood frame?

One of two reasons:

1 - I don't know if the entire roof area can be done in steel SIPs
2 - Have to see what the costs will be if 1/2 SIP and 1/2 wood truss is done.  (If a steel SIP roof is 3x more money than a wood truss roof, it will be a hard pill to swallow)

1. I have never seen a roof that could not be done with SIPs
2. I have never seen a steel SIP roof that was 3x the cost of trussed roof ( for a fair comparison you must include the cost of: insulation, finished soffit & fascia, roof sheathing and deduct the cost of a crane)these are not needed in a steel SIP roof.
3. in a whole house made with SIPs you must downsize your HVAC by 40-50% a savings alone in equipment cost both now and for future replacements.
4. 53% Lower home owner insurance cost for Steel SIPs vs wood frame

Nice post, like a poor marketing brochure.

1.Why vault an area you don't want vaulted and add to conditioned space?

2.Maybe he wont like the hokie soffit/fascia finish or would like a color other than white.

3.How thick is an r50 panel? How does that affect your included fascia/soffit detail and included cost savings?

4.Most insurance companies won't recognize steel sips as a homeowners discount, or icf for that matter.

5.You set the trusses with the teleboom that is on virtually every jobsite, including most of cmkavala pics, no crane expense.

6.I downsize the hvac of my stick frame homes, it takes quality not a gimmick.

7.Avoids a hot roof.

8.Trusses have much better span/loading capabilities.

Posted By greentree on 16 Apr 2012 09:02 PM
Nice post, like a poor marketing brochure.

1.Why vault an area you don't want vaulted and add to conditioned space?

2.Maybe he wont like the hokie soffit/fascia finish or would like a color other than white.

3.How thick is an r50 panel? How does that affect your included fascia/soffit detail and included cost savings?

4.Most insurance companies won't recognize steel sips as a homeowners discount, or icf for that matter.

5.You set the trusses with the teleboom that is on virtually every jobsite, including most of cmkavala pics, no crane expense.

6.I downsize the hvac of my stick frame homes, it takes quality not a gimmick.

7.Avoids a hot roof.

8.Trusses have much better span/loading capabilities.

Greentree;

1. Although adding vaulted area allows for duct work to be in conditioned space, even when adding the additional volume the HVAC system still will need to be downsized 40-50% from a footprint standpoint , from a volume standpoint 60-70% smaller. According to Joseph Lstiburek– the best way to build in Hot – Humid climates. You always have the option to drop the ceiling with light gage framing if you don’t desire a vault and still keep the ducts in conditioned space.
2. White is the most common soffit color used in the US, but if another color is desired it is very paintable. In any event it is better than no soffit or raw wood.
3. Our thickest panel in 12” and R51, most roof would not require a panel that thick 8” or R-34 is usually sufficient in all cases the soffit portion does not cost anything additional due to thickness of the panel, since it is the panel skin.
4. You need a new insurance company that knows how to rate the buildings properly, if you can’t get a discount then you need a new agent.

More information available at this link: http://southernsips.com/pdf/Brochure+2010.pdf

5. Most conventional jobs need to rent a tele boom or jib crane to set trusses, rental in our area are $75. Per hour with a $450 min. How fast can you set your trusses? It is an unnecessary expense with steel SIPs.
6. ALL SIP construction is proven technology! Gimmicks to improve energy efficiency can be done with conventional frame, but why bother when there is already a superior product that is not only thermally superior and 3 x stronger than frame.
7. Yes true SIPs do avoid a hot roof, the temperature on the inside of SIP roofs are conditioned and cool. Attic space in a trussed roof stresses the HVAC duct system and air condition load increases.
8. While wood trusses have their place as an older technology and are still useful in certain instances like pole barns where long spans are needed. Depth for depth SIPs will carry more load than a truss and will save 2 weeks labor on a normal size home.

Thanks for providing the platform.

1.The best way to build is no ducts in your attic.
2.Your soffit looks bad.
3.We would require a 12" panel, my customers and I don't want a 12" fascia.
4.Southern Insurance is an agency, not an insurance company, name the company that provides the discount. No major companies offer a SIPS discount, very few offer ICF discounts.
5.You need a tele on your jobsites, same expense.
6.Your product works great as beverage coolers, that should tell you something.
7.Again, why are you putting HVAC in the attic, you don't.
8.Agreed
9.Steel is not green, you should not even be allowed to post on here.
10.If they were great, than people would build with them.
11.All your sip homes look like giant white boxes.
12.Friction fit, no mastic, no good.

Are your panel ends square or plumb cut for fascia?

Steel is one of the most green products there is 70% recycled in USA. Concrete is less green. Ducts not in attic on truss --then where? soffits and boxes inside the living? in floor - you can cut for any size facia on the angle of any size SIP just frame over and clip to upper face of SIP ,If you where going to 8 inch you would only cut 4 inches at bottom at angle -reinforce with brake metal at same angle. Scissor lifts weekly are much cheaper than boom trucks for a few hours here in ATL. Just replace beverages with Humans . Good Point cold storage does not use batts or Cellulose. I think mastic could not hurt on friction fit . Other than that you sound committed to your way ..carry on..

Posted By greentree on 17 Apr 2012 09:11 PM
1.The best way to build is no ducts in your attic.
2.Your soffit looks bad.
3.We would require a 12" panel, my customers and I don't want a 12" fascia.
4.Southern Insurance is an agency, not an insurance company, name the company that provides the discount. No major companies offer a SIPS discount, very few offer ICF discounts.
5.You need a tele on your jobsites, same expense.
6.Your product works great as beverage coolers, that should tell you something.
7.Again, why are you putting HVAC in the attic, you don't.
8.Agreed
9.Steel is not green, you should not even be allowed to post on here.
10.If they were great, than people would build with them.
11.All your sip homes look like giant white boxes.
12.Friction fit, no mastic, no good.

Are your panel ends square or plumb cut for fascia?

Greentree;

1. Agreed no ducts in attic ours are in conditioned space
2. Its your opinion that it looks bad, opinions are like elbows we all got them!
3. An 8” panel would have an 8" fascia
4. Southern Insurance is a risk management company who had the smarts to build their with steel SIPs
AIUA, HHII,ALFA, to name a few, SIPs qualify as “Fortified” construction, steel SIPs are rated as NC construction and have a built in secondary water barrier.
5. 16 foot panels are light enough for two men to handle, 4 men to handle up to 28 ft. by hand, I never had a “Tele” on a job ………………… None on the job in Haiti 4 men setting 22 ft. 6” thick roof panels


6. Yes besides homes, because of their great thermal properties they are used for cold storage, clean rooms, have been used for schools, fire stations and restaurants. The skins are USDA approved finishes and do not promote mold and mildew that is found in wood products.
7. Again we don’t have attics , we have conditioned space
8. Your kidding?
9. Steel is made from 30% recycled material and is 100% recyclable, very sustainable and very green.
10. What can I say? Some people are just slower than others …………many educated people are building with them, my business is 100% committed to SIP construction and has been for the last 13 years, we have built throughout the South East US and have supplied projects to California, Missouri, Virginia and many Caribbean Islands. Sir Richard Branson is currently planning to Build with SIPs .
11. Giant white boxes? ………………..



12. Mastic is needed on a product that is not made with close tolerances. Not needed on precision fit joints .

Plumb or square either is available

Posted By greentree on 17 Apr 2012 09:11 PM
1.The best way to build is no ducts in your attic.
2.Your soffit looks bad.
3.We would require a 12" panel, my customers and I don't want a 12" fascia.
4.Southern Insurance is an agency, not an insurance company, name the company that provides the discount. No major companies offer a SIPS discount, very few offer ICF discounts.
5.You need a tele on your jobsites, same expense.
6.Your product works great as beverage coolers, that should tell you something.
7.Again, why are you putting HVAC in the attic, you don't.
8.Agreed
9.Steel is not green, you should not even be allowed to post on here.
10.If they were great, than people would build with them.
11.All your sip homes look like giant white boxes.
12.Friction fit, no mastic, no good.

Are your panel ends square or plumb cut for fascia?

Greentree -

I think you are being a little harsh on Steel SIPs. They are not for everyone but they are a viable option for building. A 12" steel SIP gives a solid R-50 value and it is a monolithic piece that is very strong.

Lbear,
I'm trying to be harsh. It's actually hard coming up with a list of undesireable properties, I think it's a great product for southern climate walls and beer coolers, among OTHER good options. Its fast and your crew can be somewhat unskilled, great for habitat for humanity or relief efforts. I just dont like kavala's attitude to pawn his product as if it's the only good out there on a forum that's about knowledge, not sales. Not to mention his points are inaccurate or out of context.

That said, with your original question, 1/2 truss 1/2 sips is a workable option, a good solution if you insist on sip vault versus parallel chord vault truss which would be the best solution in my opinion, perhaps on sip walls. With no basement or crawl a 12" sip might be a great solution if there are no design constraints on your plan, otherwise you can truss literally anything in parallel chord, then need to insulate with netted cellulose or spray foam. Panel noise on the roof with sips would be a concern to me.

Chris, your pics prove my point, you couldn't tell me with a straight face that the top pic doesn't look like a giant box, an ugly one at that. Do architects not exist down south?

Posted By greentree on 18 Apr 2012 08:28 AM
Lbear,
I'm trying to be harsh. It's actually hard coming up with a list of undesireable properties, I think it's a great product for southern climate walls and beer coolers, among OTHER good options. Its fast and your crew can be somewhat unskilled, great for habitat for humanity or relief efforts. I just dont like kavala's attitude to pawn his product as if it's the only good out there on a forum that's about knowledge, not sales. Not to mention his points are inaccurate or out of context.

That said, with your original question, 1/2 truss 1/2 sips is a workable option, a good solution if you insist on sip vault versus parallel chord vault truss which would be the best solution in my opinion, perhaps on sip walls. With no basement or crawl a 12" sip might be a great solution if there are no design constraints on your plan, otherwise you can truss literally anything in parallel chord, then need to insulate with netted cellulose or spray foam. Panel noise on the roof with sips would be a concern to me.

Chris, your pics prove my point, you couldn't tell me with a straight face that the top pic doesn't look like a giant box, an ugly one at that. Do architects not exist down south?

The problem with a vault truss is that it would drastically impact the roof pitch and the overall height of the home. That is why a steel SIP is the better choice, especially for the vaulted area of the home. The impact is only 12" in depth with a steel SIP and it gives me a R-50 Value. I can't do a parallel chord vault truss in 12" and still get a R-50 out of it.

The home will have ICF walls.

In regards to the noise, the solution would be to install neoprene washers on the screws in addition to installing furring channels inside of the homes ceiling area. A 4"+ deep channel with 5/8" drywall attached to that will stop any noise issues.

I have not yet come across a homeowner who became sold on metal SIPs and decided to have part of their roof conventionally built with wood framing. That does not mean it should not be done. One situation that might occur, on a very budget conscious 1 story ranch style build, is the living space would have a metal SIP roof and the garage would be wood framed. That would be somewhat cost effective and provide the tightest and best insulated part of the house where it is needed most. Their is definately an inefficiency in labor switching from a metal to wood system unless your crew is trained in both systems. Regarding my former example, it would be a shame not to have the comfort of a Metal SIP garage. With an insulated door they become very pleasant spaces to be in and actually extend your living space. So in a modestly sized home due to budget, livable garage space for an office or climate controlled storage becomes more important, thus negating the cost savings of building it conventionally.

A well porportioned box with well placed and porportioned fenstration and good integration of the box form for the living and shelter function are rare but possible. Boxy does not have to be ugly. IMO The (Metal) SIP industry is in need of individuals who can be more creative with this building material. The attached photo is not a SIP house but could be.

SIPs do not equal boring. This could be a SIP house. Its all about creative use ot the product.

Posted By Lbear on 18 Apr 2012 09:56 AM

Posted By greentree on 18 Apr 2012 08:28 AM
Lbear,
I'm trying to be harsh. It's actually hard coming up with a list of undesireable properties, I think it's a great product for southern climate walls and beer coolers, among OTHER good options. Its fast and your crew can be somewhat unskilled, great for habitat for humanity or relief efforts. I just dont like kavala's attitude to pawn his product as if it's the only good out there on a forum that's about knowledge, not sales. Not to mention his points are inaccurate or out of context.

That said, with your original question, 1/2 truss 1/2 sips is a workable option, a good solution if you insist on sip vault versus parallel chord vault truss which would be the best solution in my opinion, perhaps on sip walls. With no basement or crawl a 12" sip might be a great solution if there are no design constraints on your plan, otherwise you can truss literally anything in parallel chord, then need to insulate with netted cellulose or spray foam. Panel noise on the roof with sips would be a concern to me.

Chris, your pics prove my point, you couldn't tell me with a straight face that the top pic doesn't look like a giant box, an ugly one at that. Do architects not exist down south?

The problem with a vault truss is that it would drastically impact the roof pitch and the overall height of the home. That is why a steel SIP is the better choice, especially for the vaulted area of the home. The impact is only 12" in depth with a steel SIP and it gives me a R-50 Value. I can't do a parallel chord vault truss in 12" and still get a R-50 out of it.

The home will have ICF walls.

In regards to the noise, the solution would be to install neoprene washers on the screws in addition to installing furring channels inside of the homes ceiling area. A 4"+ deep channel with 5/8" drywall attached to that will stop any noise issues.

Let's not overexaggerate here..it does not drastically change the pitch, in fact it has nothing to do with pitch, the pitch is the same.  Depth on a truss will increase over a panel and thus height of the peak and fascia line, but not drastically. 

My last parallel chord was around 18" chord to chord on a 8/12 for a 38' span...that's snow load design.  As a bonus you can increase the overhangs and use it to our advantage for winter/summer sun and lower your fascia line to what a 12" panel would be. You can then increase your southern glazing in my climate.

That said, good luck with the sips, it is a good option.

PS, the recyced benefits of steel are overstated, it takes massive amount of energy to produce steel, and it takes big energy to recycle it. The word recycle doesn't mean green.

Jeff, those are great examples of making the most of a box, send those to ChrisK for inspiration.

Posted By greentree on 18 Apr 2012 11:44 AM

Let's not overexaggerate here..it does not drastically change the pitch, in fact it has nothing to do with pitch, the pitch is the same.  Depth on a truss will increase over a panel and thus height of the peak and fascia line, but not drastically. 

My last parallel chord was around 18" chord to chord on a 8/12 for a 38' span...that's snow load design.  As a bonus you can increase the overhangs and use it to our advantage for winter/summer sun and lower your fascia line to what a 12" panel would be. You can then increase your southern glazing in my climate.

That said, good luck with the sips, it is a good option.

PS, the recyced benefits of steel are overstated, it takes massive amount of energy to produce steel, and it takes big energy to recycle it. The word recycle doesn't mean green.

Per my architect, he stated, "A lot of the western half of the roof can be trusses with blown in insul. but scissors trusses definitely wouldn't work over the living/dining area without seriously impacting the roof pitch and overall bldg. height. SIPs could work handily over the high ceiling space and would solve some of the problems with wood framing."

How much blown in cellulose can you fit within that 18" truss area? What about venting?

Greentree;
If you took the time to read the post you would realize that it was to demonstrate lifting of panels by hand with no “Tele” to be found in a 10 mile radius.
The home was built in Haiti and purposely designed for economy, it is not a big box, but in fact a small box - 20’ x 20’ cottage with a loft. An economical solution to provide much needed affordable housing
No comment on the next photo that was nicknamed “the castle” the homeowners is one of the largest concrete contractors in Florida, but instead of block walls he choose thermally efficient metal panels. Built directly on the Gulf of Mexico in a 130 mph wind zone.
There are not too many products that can provide the structural/thermal shell along with inside and outside finished all in on component. So if I am passionate about what I do, it is because I have not found anything better.
I am not trying to sell you anything, but it is a Forum for people to explore new technologies and a place to provide answers to intelligent questions. There are many other builders that do the same construction I do, competition is a healthy thing
I would be curious to see if you actually do anything or if you just like to stir up things, why don’t you please post a picture of an architectural wonder that you have built.
By the way, Jeff’s posts are not SIPs structures and he made note of that.

Posted By Lbear on 18 Apr 2012 02:31 PM

Posted By greentree on 18 Apr 2012 11:44 AM

Let's not overexaggerate here..it does not drastically change the pitch, in fact it has nothing to do with pitch, the pitch is the same.  Depth on a truss will increase over a panel and thus height of the peak and fascia line, but not drastically. 

My last parallel chord was around 18" chord to chord on a 8/12 for a 38' span...that's snow load design.  As a bonus you can increase the overhangs and use it to our advantage for winter/summer sun and lower your fascia line to what a 12" panel would be. You can then increase your southern glazing in my climate.

That said, good luck with the sips, it is a good option.

PS, the recyced benefits of steel are overstated, it takes massive amount of energy to produce steel, and it takes big energy to recycle it. The word recycle doesn't mean green.

Per my architect, he stated, "A lot of the western half of the roof can be trusses with blown in insul. but scissors trusses definitely wouldn't work over the living/dining area without seriously impacting the roof pitch and overall bldg. height. SIPs could work handily over the high ceiling space and would solve some of the problems with wood framing."

How much blown in cellulose can you fit within that 18" truss area? What about venting?

I'm not talking scissor truss, ask about a parallel chord truss. You install proper vents lapped correctly up each bay.