We are in the middle of our first SIPs project, and it has been a mess. THe crew is new to SIPs, but they are a capable crew with panelized experience.

We've seen 2 other SIP projects in the area (by two other SIP manufacturers), and they were as bad or worse. We spent the extra time, and were very careful in planning, specifying the panels, and engineering - thinking we'd do it the right way (assuming the other builders didn't - silly us).

In all cases the manufactuer got some of the panels wrong, all most every panel need site triming, the panels didn't always fit very tightly together (especially on the roof there are 1/2" gaps between panels & splines), the roof has been an incredable time waster. The result? buildings that cost a lot more, take more time to build, take just as much time to seal, and the result is a building with doubious value compared to doing it convertionally.

I'm left wondering what place SIPs have. So would you do it again.

I should note, even if we wanted to use SIPs agian, none of the builders around here who used SIPs would do it again... there are only so many builders the SIPs industry can tick-off and still have a viable industry.

i am sorry to hear about your problems with your SIP house construction.
can you email me with more details?
i am in the process of researching my own house that i plan on building with SIPs and i would appreciate any and all information you care to share.
on the top of my questions is which SIP company you used.
i doubt you want to post that info on this website so if you could email me i would appreciate it.
thanks- joe
[email protected] 

i have used sips and will again but i think sips are best utilized for walls only in simpler type houses. a conventional truss roof is still the best way to go in most cases.

The builders have each found the SIPs to take 1/3 longer to build than conventional constuction, and 1/3 -1/2 more cost.

that is not totally correct. while they do cost more you save about 3 days in the wall framing stage.

The problem is once you have to correct manufacturing flaws on-site, or if you put lumber into the panels to support headers and purlins, things slow down considerably. Like I said the 4 projects I'm aware of (including ours), built much slower than convinsional - because they had to change something on almost every panel. All projects had professional builders, though each a first time SIP user.

I would like to hear form experienced SIP builders on this one, with an honest assesment. (no SIP cheerleading)

These "experienced builders" had to trim panels?! Oh my! We will cancel the entire SIP industry which is growing at 40% per year because they cant use a skill saw? If you want super speed why didnt you build a modular?

I would question the manufacturers first, then the so called builder...

Who was the manufacturers

The problem with most builders that are inexperienced is that they wont admit they are and they will blame others. You need to stand your ground with the builder....

"The crew is new to SIP's, but they are a capable crew with panelized experience. "
First mistake, panelized experience is no different than standard framing experience. SIP's construction is a completely different set of skills and knowledge.

"We spent the extra time, and were very careful in planning, specifying the panels, and engineering"
You threw all this work out the window when you hired a company that has never built with SIP's

"In all cases the manufacturer got some of the panels wrong, all most every panel need site trimming, the panels didn't always fit very tightly together"
Again, a direct result of an inexperienced installer. Installing these panels is not rocket science, but the framer or builder has to care about the job they are doing. Hopefully you had the SIP company rep. come down for a day and explain how the panels should have been installed. If you, or your framer, did not do this then, well, I'm not even going to go there.

"The result? buildings that cost a lot more, take more time to build, take just as much time to seal, and the result is a building with dubious value compared to doing it conventionally."
SIP's are going to cost more, that is a given. If someone tells you something else, they are wrong. SIP's can be installed in less time if installed by an experienced installer. If you hired a company with no experience, there will be a learning curve, and it will take longer, but the job should be done correctly. I can tell you from your description, your job was not done correctly, by the installer. I doubt very much it was that panel company's mistake. There are a lot of factors that will cause the problems you are describing. If your foundation is out of square, or not level, if the framer did not install the floor deck correctly, if they did not take the time to put the panels in place, and simply put them up to fast without paying attention to details.

"I'm left wondering what place SIP's have. So would you do it again."
SIP's definitely have a place. Installers that don't take the time to learn how to install the panels, do not have a place installing them. Customers that don't hire the proper crew to install the panels, do not have a place, or reason to be dissatisfied, and need to look to themselves for possible mistakes. SIP's are a good product, there is no doubt about that. I am truly sorry you have had this experience, and believe it did not have to be this way. It sounds like you are acting as your own general contractor. If this is the case, I think you may want to take a moment, and review what your ultimate goals are. It may be time to have a experienced SIP installer take a look at the installation, and suggest corrections that need to be made. Hiring an installer that has never used SIP's undoubtedly has created other issues that need attention. Such as properly sealing the envelope. There is really little reason to use SIP's if you leave gaps in the panels, as you have described.

"We are in the middle of our first SIP's project, and it has been a mess"
STOP right now, and regroup. Have a panel rep. take a look at the job. Hire someone with experience to take a look at the job. This will only get worse if you continue down this path.

"I would like to hear form experienced SIP builders on this one, with an honest assessment. (no SIP cheerleading)"

Above is an "honest assessment". I have built a lot of homes with SIP's and have never encountered the problems you describe, at least to the extent that you describe. Now, I am not saying that you will never have to trim a panel, you will, that is a given. Usually the only panel we ever trim is the last one if any at all. It is easy, as SIP007 said, for the framer or builder, to tell you its the panel manufactures problem. It is very rare for a subcontractor, whom you are withholding money from, to tell you they screwed up. If the framer has never built with SIP's then they may not even know they screwed up.

We are nearing drywall on my 4000 sf, 4 story house, built with SIPS ontop of a concrete basement. We used Premier Panels and they went together very well, but we had a very smart SIPS guy, Mike Lee, 49th Parellel group leading the whole thing, from reviewing drafting to fixing all the problems the ding dong Engineer added, to erecting. I think we had only one panel that was small and remanufactured quickly as one of the very complicated angles for the dormer was reversed.

The house is quiet and stout. We did not have any major problems with SIPS and they accomplished what I wanted very well. I think it added less than 2% to the total cost, if any, but I really don't have any way of comparing this to this unique house.

FYI this house sits on an ICF basement and the rest is entirely SIPS including all roof, dormer walls, cheek walls, etc.

The budget for this construction is about $800,000. The house sits in a very classic, 100 yo neighborhood and is designed to look like a traditional tudor house.

FYI. We live in the NW, where there is lots of lumber, last I checked, unless it has been all shipped to Bagdag. We consistently had problems getting quality lumber for interior framing and we were amazed at the cost and how screwed up the studs we kept receiving. This might be something to think about as The SIPS panels are flat as pancakes.

"We spent the extra time, and were very careful in planning, specifying the panels, and engineering"

You threw all this work out the window when you hired a company that has never built with SIP's

Like I said, there are no experienced SIP builders around here. Both I and my client interviewed everybody we could find (polling the SIP companies for past sales), the only builders who done it have done it once, and are not excited to do it again. We went with the next best thing, a crew with panelized experience and a commitment to energy efficiency and green building (and willing to implement our energy efficient  details without complaining).

I can tell you from your description, your job was not done correctly, by the installer. I doubt very much it was that panel company's mistake. There are a lot of factors that will cause the problems you are describing. If your foundation is out of square, or not level, if the framer did not install the floor deck correctly, if they did not take the time to put the panels in place, and simply put them up to fast without paying attention to details.
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The foreman has 20 year experience and teaches construction, and very competent. The owner is very knowledgeable and oversees the work. And the foundation very was square and level, no platform floors (balloon framed), and everyone was very conceinous. Clearly they are first timers, but it shouldn't have been this rough. The problems breakdown into:

1. Manufacturing problems: panels not square, short panels, walls not beveled correctly, tie down plates not embedded as per plans. Roof panels not mitered correctly to overlap others. Poor fitting splines (esp roof).

2. Construction mistakes: they always happen, and some did here, but SIPs make things much harder and time consuming to correct.

3. Engineering problems: The SIP company engineer (ESE engineering with premier panels - be warned) didn't know a SIP from his rear. After much fighting with the SIP company and their engineer for 2 weeks, I managed to fix 50% of the engineering problems - but I ran out of time to meet my clients construction loan timeline. These unfixed problems alone probably cost the project an extra $12,000 in unnecessary materials and labor. Until the SIP mfgs start understanding their own product, and engineer it correctly, the SIP industry is doomed. They are their own worst advocates - the first plan had almost as much lumber as if we conventionally framed it 16" OC (and this was a 10" wall... all those 2x10"s, certainly more lumber than 24" OC value framing for sure. After teaching their engineer how to engineer SIPs (which got me hung up on at least twice - they didn't want to deal with anything that made them think too hard), I removed much of the junk lumber, but I wasn't able to get the more obscure technical data to fix the rest before my deadline was reached.

Now I know this isn't an isolated problem. Clearly many of these issues can be addressed, and its nice to write them down to put them into perspective - but I've had many conversations with Premier myself during this process, and I'm not left with any real sense of confidence in their atitude toward making a quality product, their end product accuracy, or their engineering. And yet they seem to be one of the largest and capable SIP manufacturers - not very inspiring.

Such as properly sealing the envelope. There is really little reason to use SIP's if you leave gaps in the panels, as you have described.

Indeed. I will go down personally with my blower door and perform a guided sealing of the house. They have very carefully mastic'd the building within an inch of its life. However, Premier is one of those SIP companies who believes their panels don't need spray foam (just mastic). And the construction crew naively believed them. Some of the roof panels have a good 1/4" gap between splines (due to Premier over cutting the foam back). I joined a SIP crew to get a feel for the technology a few months ago (didn't want to recommend it to clients before I'd seen it), and the roof panels were even worse in that case (SPS Panels). The LVL splines didn't even fit into the panels without modifying each LVL. We had to use ratchet straps to even get them together (10 minutes per joint huffing & puffing), after which we still had to empty a half a can of Hilti foam into each spline to fill it. After running through the SIP manufacturers foam, they've gone through cases and cases of the stuff. A very slow.... slow... process.

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Hello all,
I have enjoyed the SIP building experience, although I am not done just yet. Many of the issues written about, I experienced as well, but few were the manufacturers fault. My foundation was off a bit and that threw many of the measurements off. Additionally, I have (2) 45 corners and one 'V'. Most of these required some "carpentry work" but ultimately came together pretty well. (BTW 2 stories,attached garage and SIP Hip roof about 3,500 sq. ft. total) The roof was a bear but looks sweet with the metal on it. Most of my building problems were due to the floor and truss manufacturer. Without going into too much detail, the SIPs cost $39,500 and took about 700 man hrs. ( about 4 weeks) to get closed in (includes windows, not the metal on roof). Me and (3) friends, little to no building experience between us. I have know idea how this sizes up with a typical stick build.

Could you tell me more about the house you built (general location) and what the problems were with the floor?  Also what did you do for the roof (sounds like you only used sips for the walls)?  What manufacturer did you use?

Hi Chuck,
I assumed you were looking for a reply from me (if not, please disregard).
The house is located in SW Lower Michigan (just north of South Bend, IN).  Many of the floor trusses were not the same length.  I.E. the spec called for (15) to be 'x' length and some were 2" shorter, some 3/4" longer, etc.  I also had a 4" overhang along the north and south borders.  This coupled with the 45's and 'V' made it particularly important the trusses were right on.  They were not.
I did use 8.5" SIP roof panels.  The "bear" was mostly my fault and partially the trusses manf. fault (btw, I used a traditional roof truss plan and put the panels on top.  First, I needed a crane to position the panels on the roof, which was costly.  Secondly, I didn't make absolutely sure that after I put on the top plates that they were all level.  Trying to get pre-cut panels to fit properly on an uneven surface (off by about 3/4"), was, ....difficult.  Also, making sure that the sub-facia all came together, level, plumb, etc. was hard.  It eventually all came together with a big help from my metal roofing guy.
I hope this is not inappropriate but I used PorterSIPS out of Holland, MI.  They were easy to work with and the panels were spot on for the measurements I gave them.  Delivery was convenient and timely.  I was pretty happy with them.  Hope this helps.

Thanks TMSU,
I'm planning on building later this year (probably with SIPS) and it is helpful to hear as much as possible from those who have already done so.

Chuck,

You are welcome.  If you decide to build with SIPs, a couple things to know that would have helped me to know ahead of time. 
*Buy the "hot knife" to scoop out foam on panels that need slight altering
*Bevel the bottom plates before standing the SIP panel up.  This makes it so much simpler to slide the larger panels together (have a "come-a-long on site as well).  This makes it easier to bring them together also.
*If you are doing a SIP roof, plan on using a crane.  We attached plates that the SIP company provided to the panels with coarse 1.25" drywall screws.  Two per panel and no problems.  My panels were 17' x 8' and weighed around 600lbs.  We spent a whole day prepping the panels (splines and sub-facia board).  We were able to put up the whole roof with about 6 hrs. of crane work (we had four of us).
*One more, my panels got a little wet, along with the splines.  This made it much more difficult to get the panels to come together.  To alleviate this problem, we took a saw blade off one side of the spline.  Worked great and of course we foamed every connection.  (btw, the splines and panels were fine when dry)

I would use this site and other information to take notes from to help during the building process.
 
Have fun

I am 'considering' our first SIP project with others  to follow(If all goes OK). However I have become a bit concerned with all the negative experiences coming to light.

I am curious about your statement  that nearly all orders were incorrect RE panel size etc... 

Who was the company and was it the disgner/contractors' mis measurement or the manufacturer?

Thanks for any inof on the subject.

John in the OC,
An understandable concern. Our past history has brought us to a SIP manufacturer that does provide panels exact to specifications. Part of the problem (if the issue lies with the manufacturer, which in our past, it did) is if the manufacturer does not have an automated computerized system. Some panel manufacturers only hand cut their panels, thus the potential for human error. By using state of the art tecnology (HSB CAD), we have had absolutely no problems with our new manufacturer (they are totally automated) in the 2 1/2 years that we have been working with them. They also provide 3D drawings, so where mistakes could be made reading one dimensional drawings with other suppliers, the 3D drawings minimize any errors that could be associated with not reading the drawings accurately. Because we also have our own designers who are familiar with SIPs, room for error is at an absolute minimum. Our customers (or their contractors) are required to review the shop drawings prior to production, but we do the same in house so someone is always double checking the manufacturer's shop drawings prior to sending them to production.
Hope this helps.

Sorry to here your problems.
I would not blame SIPs being the issue. It all relates to the SIP designer and SIP manufacture. I was approached by a SIP manufacture because they were getting complaints of roofs not going together. I'm a SIP disigner and use 3D to do the SIP plans. I will know before it gets out in the feild of any issues since I'm working with real 3D SIP objects to do the plans. You need to make sure that who ever you are using that they are able to verify that the panel cuts are accurate. If you need help, email me: [email protected]. So far no roof was too complicated for us to build with SIPs.