I built a home 3.5 years ago and installed Geo as the heat/air source. Before you hear about all the problems I've encountered, know that I'm a huge proponent of Geo, even though my experience has, for lack of better words, sucked. I'm even an investor in a 3 year old drilling company who does nothing but drill Geo wells, and I invested in the company while I was having problems. Geo works. I know this. The technology is solid and works for many people. Now for the bad news, in my area that I built my home there were two viable options as installers: One was too busy, and the other had just gotten into the Geo industry. My home foundation was poured, it was November and my builder made me make a decision very quickly whether I was going with Geo or going gas forced air. He wanted nothing to do with Geo and said if I chose that route that he would not guarantee anything involving the heating and air. I was ok with that since the install company, who I won't name (yet) was promising me they had what it took to install the system and would guarantee it would work correctly and I would realize my investment in a few years. I make the decision to go with the company who had never installed one system before. I was promised that every step of the way, they (the installer) would have their distributor (who will remain unnamed, for now) watch the process and make sure everything was ok. Fast forward 8 months later, the system is in, and immediately we experienced problems. Loss of pressure in the loop field, insufficient breaker panel connected to the unit that cooked the breaker box and almost started a fire, loss of pressure again, etc etc etc. I had to cut a deer hunt short because of a mistake they had made - and cutting a deer hunt short just isn't right. Anyhow, lots of lots of time spent with the installers tech who has probably made between 25-50 visits to our house to fix problems with the system. My kids refer to him as uncle Bob. Seriously. It seems like all the visits actually have made the system stable and it seems to be working ok except for the following: For three years, two of the rooms at the end of the duct run have been extremely cold in winter and warm in summer. They're located over our garage. We complained long enough that the installer came out, spliced into the supply duct just before the two rooms mentioned before and installed an in-line duct fan that would switch on everytime the geo unit turned on. It solved that problem, but created another. The room supplied before the fan is our master bedroom, which is where the thermostat is located. Suddenly the two rooms mentioned above were heated appropriately, but now our master bedroom was cold, thus the thermostat never shutting off, and running in the electric or emergency heat mode. Basically, the in-line fan was sucking the air so hard to supply the two rooms, it didn't allow air to drop into the master. Our bills skyrocketed. Finally, I had the installer come back out and take the in-line fan out, and now we're back to where we were in the beginning. However, this time when they visited, I insisted that they bring their regional rep for the equipment manufacturer. They all showed up, agreed something was wrong, and asked for a copy of my blue prints so they could re-run a load calc on my home. The manufacturer rep called me back a few days later and said "based on 8 150 ft wells drilled, you're short by about 99 feet in your loop field, but I think we can make it work". Hmmm, first of all, how do you intend to make it work? Second of all, I only have 7 freakin' holes in the ground, not 8! I tell this to the rep, he says he'll get back to me, and he never does. Instead, he has the installer get back in touch with me (only after I had to call them 4 times to get them to respond) and he says "Based on 7 holes we think we can make it work". Here's how: They want to take the 6 ton unit that resides in my basement and split it up and put a unit on the second floor - which they admit they should have done in the first place. There would be an air handler used for the second floor and one for the first floor. Here's where it gets weird - they propose NOT taking the 6 ton system out, but basically reconfiguring its internal organs to magically make it a 3 ton system. I'm not technical when it comes to this, but I don't think a guy would really want to go screwing around with these compressors, am I right? That'd be like chopping an 8 cylinder engine down to a 4 cylinder without actually replacing the engine. I'm now very suspicious of their intentions, which I believe is to not lose any more money and hope I go away. I'm not going to. My installer has essentially stopped returning my calls. I told them to right down exactly what they are proposing to do, so I can show others in the industry what they want to do. I'd like to get a second opinion from another installer and see if these guys are just trying to save money and the solution that they are suggesting isn't at all the correct solution. What I think should happen: Hire somebody in the industry to come in and evaluate my home, tell me what my loop field should look like (how many loops), and advise me on how to implement a new system. Problem is, in my area everyone seems to know everyone in the Geo industry and nobody wants to rat out somebody. Is it time to get an attorney involved?  Does anyone have any advice? Does anyone know of a advisory group that specializes in evaluating Geo systems? Does anyone know of an attorney who has successfully represented someone in my situation?

where do you live?

Illinois, Elmhurst.

As far as the 2 rooms not getting warm, that sounds like a definite duct design/installation mistake(s). If they've re-done a load calculation, ask them what BTUh load each room has, and what associated cfm each room needs. Then ask why that is not being delivered to those rooms. Make sure that gets fixed. Maybe someone associated with ACCA could help there.

If the original installers aren't willing to make the duct right, you may be on the right track with getting an attorney. I hate to see any installation go that way, but things need to be installed right. The original installers seem, though, like they are willing to do things to make it work.

For changing the 6 ton unit to a 3 ton, it shouldn't really be that big of a deal, as long as coil, compressor, and blower sizes collaborate with each other to allow it to function well. I don't know why this would save them money, though.

With the loop sizing problems...welcome to water source loops...just my (and many others, not necessarily on this board...) opinion. Luckily you have a driller available to punch 2 more holes in the ground, right?

One other note...I don't necessarily think that people in the geo industry don't want to rat out anyone. Rather, I think we've all learned some lessons in being very quick to judge. Until all possible information is gathered, we don't have the whole story. We've seen many times when a home owner doesn't give the entire story, and makes the installer look worse than is actually so. I've seen when installers paint a horrible picture of homeowners/clients, and that's wasn't the case, either. Having not been in on the design and installation of your system, there's only so much we can advise and/or gather from your description.

Sidenote: what type of drill are you invested in? Is it busy?

Agree that you have a duct problem, if we get balance to the bonus rooms, what other problems remain? If that's it, then fix the ducts not the heat pump. If they wish to split the systems (at their expense), that will probably do (it would be cheaper to fix the ducts). Derating your unit will probably void manufacturers warranties.
If air balance is your only remaining complaint, you don't need a geo contractor for a second opinion.
Incidently we use 1, 150' u tube/ton in mid MI, at a glance (using information you provided) loops are probably adequate.
Good Luck,
J

Thanks for the advice. As to your last paragraph, I do appreciate what you're saying here and have over the last 3 years tried to put myself in my installers position.

I was successful in talking to the installer today. They'll be coming out to take a look at the duct work next Tuesday.

The company I financially back has two mud rotary rigs - they're busy as they can be for February in Illinois, but they'll be running full speed come March.

I guess I should have emphasized the question-
Do problems remain other than the temp imbalance from room to room?
J

joe.ami, when you say 150' u tube per ton, is that 75' down and 75' back, or 150' down and 150' back for a total of 300 per ton?

sorry, 150' wells, 300' tube average depth 75'

I'm still confused.

You drill a 150' vertical hole? Put 300' of pipe down and back. So, how is the average depth 75'

If the top of the pipe is 1 foot and bottom is 150 Then the average depth of the pipe is 75

Sorry, that was embarrassingly obvious.

CNGL4885-

I saw your post and wanted to reach out. I'm in Downers Grove, IL and am looking at putting in a Geothermal system. I'm still in the quote stage- just had a blower door test and sizing visit and am waiting for a quote on some insulation improvements and installing a geothermal system. If you still need a second opinion, let me know and I can email you the contact information for the guy I'm using. He's told me some stories about being called in to look at systems designed/installed by others that have been having problems.

Two questions for you:
1. Who was the other more experienced installer? I will want to get a second opinion/quote. I'm still deciding between a DX or water based system. Could you personal mail it to me?
2. Does your drilling company do work in the Chicago metro area? Are they paired up with any installers?

Thanks-

Marty

Not really. Other than my electric bill being extremely high. It makes sense to me though, since my master bedroom isn't achieving the temp that the thermostat is askin' for, so the electric/aux heat kicks in and never really shuts off. For a whole month....drawing around 70+ amps for a long period of time. Ouch.

The installer is coming out Tues of next week to look at a couple of crucial turning points in the duct work. He said he thinks the that a riser duct might be dead-headed with no type of turning device. I think it might solve part of the problem. I was able to talk to the manufacturer rep and he said he still thinks a split system is the answer. I just hope that it won't require anymore additional wells to satisfy the system.