I transferred this from another thread: 12/24/2009 1:22 PM Wayne is describing my experience with Tranq 27 exactly - except I never had an HRV. This is my first winter on geothermal and the last two months (Oct3-Dec3) which were relatively mild in November, used 1620 kwh more electricity than last year (much colder last year in same period) and when electric bill is compared to last year's electric plus natural gas bills (with a 30 year old forced air unit) I am $100 behind - and the cold weather hasn't even started. I was left with a 4' high pile of dirt which I've gradually spread over the property. I'm afraid to go too far in landscaping the area in case it's installed incorrectly. Supposedly I have 3 -180 feet deep vertical loops. I, too, was told to leave the electric heater's breaker off. The result is that my auxiliary heat ran a third of the time in November and now runs at least half the time for 2 hours plus at a stretch, even though the thermostat is showing one degree off the setpoint. This was supposed to be a planet-saving and long term money saving investment. I am so frustrated I could cry. I wonder if Wayne and I have the same supplier??? I get the same treatment and the serviceman who has come so far asks for my instruction booklets that came with unit and thermostat. Very confidence inspiring! First he put a booster on my compressor as the initial visit was because the compressor wouldn't come on. He said that problem was causing aux. heat setting to kick in (Breaker to electric still off). Next time he told me it WAS a two stage system (Duh) so it was OK for aux heat to be on all time. Trouble is it's not really even cold yet..... Help! The only good thing is knowing there's someone else out there with the same thing happening. I really think it's set up wrong - could my dealer have substituted a smaller compressor? How can I find out if he's not telling me? Other dealers seem reluctant to come and look, even for an inspection/service call fee. 12/24/2009 1:55 PM I guess I am confused. How can the auxiliary heater come on if the breaker is turned off? Dewayne Dean PalaceGeothermal.com Why settle for 90% when you can have 400% We heat and cool with dirt! visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system 12/24/2009 3:22 PM Edit Quote Reply I have three levels of "blowing". One called "heating" on thermostat - a mild current of air from registers, "heating 2" - a fairly loud, stronger current and finally "" - a big loud current which now runs about 1/2 the time - it's cold out (-6-8'C, I'm near Hamilton, Ontario) but not really cold. So thermostat reads "aux heat" and blows hard even though electric heater is not on. The Tranq 27 literature seems to indicate "heating 2"(is this second stage?) only comes on when it;s very cold and "aux" only if emerg heat (electric) is needed. But not the way mine works.........

Taffy:
Deep breaths, relax a little.

A Tranquility 27 is a top notch unit, and there's some really knowledgeable folks here who can help.

I'm guessing that the "booster" for your compressor that you mention is a "soft-start" kit. That's not uncommon, particularly for use in rural areas. It would be fairly, um, far fetched, to "substitute" a smaller compressor in a heat pump than the one that came with the unit. Sure, it could be done, but the labour involved would far outweigh the value of the compressor.

Your confusion about "aux" heat is somewhat understandable. Your thermostat may have different terms for the different stages of heating than your heat pump. For example, my thermostat labels stage 1 as "heat", stage 2 as "aux heat", and stage 3 as "emerg".  In my case, stage 3 is my auxiliary/emergency electric heat strips.  Keep in mind that if it gets cold enough in your house, the thermostat might ask the heat pump to kick in the electric backup, but neither the thermostat nor the heat pump will know that you've turned the breaker off. That's OK, unless it is getting too cold for comfort inside your house.

Adding only 1620kw to your electric bill for Oct and Nov seems not unreasonable to me, although I'm saying that without knowing what sort of building is being heated here. That's about $180 for two months heat @ $0.11/kw. I'm not sure I see a huge problem there.

Anyways, the experts on this site will likely need some info to help. Like this:

-Size or model number of your heat pump (ie 3 ton, or TTV038)
-Heat loss (load) calc for your house in tons or BTUs - your installer would have used this to size your system.
-Some info about the size and construction of your house would be handy too
-Brand and model of thermostat

-Entering and leaving water temps
-Entering and leaving air temps

(if you can't get those temps from your installer, you'll need a digital thermometer for this - the $10 meat thermometer kind from WalMart will do)

Thanks for your interest jml. My billing period of two months really was 3 weeks of use except for the fan. I go to the cottage May to November (another reason why the Oct 3-Dec 3 bill was so scary and so outrageous - the water heater was shut off and the therm setpoint was 60' and only the fan was on till Nov 15). It was a two month period with a bill of $100 more than last year with a 30 year old forced air gas furnace, and this year was much milder. I have that kind of meat thermometer - how and where on the unit do I take the readings? Unfortunately, I wouldn't believe what my installer told me at this point in our relationship.

Measure the air temps by poking the probe into the air ducts while the furnace is running. The entering air temp can usually be measured somewhere near the air filter, the leaving air temp somewhere in the ductwork above the furnace. (Keep the furnace cabinet covers closed and on for this to work).

The water temps should be measured close to the "water in" and "water out" fittings on the heat pump. Ideally your installer may have put a test port fitting called a "P/T Port" near these locations that will accept a temperature probe. If not, tape the meat thermometer directly to the outside of the metal water pipe fittings (under the insulation) near these locations to get a fairly close reading.

It sounds like we need 3 sets of water in, water out, air in, and air out readings - one for each "stage" the furnace runs in.

The experts here (not me, I'm just a homeowner) may be able to help after you supply this info, plus the basics about your system that I mentioned before. (size of heat pump, size and type of house, load calcs).

jml if you're not a pro you might play one on TV.......
Taffy he's correct that we can only offer unfounded conjecture without certain information that you may already be in posession of with the salesman's package (cost projections etc.).
See if you have a load calculation. Also see if you have an operating cost projection and look for a nuber called "balance point" or if they gave you the deluxe engineer edition (more data the better) you may have something called a "bin" report which shows you balance point by default (this is the temp at which aux should come on).
Then give us the model # of the heat pump and average cost per kw/hour of your electricity.
With that info I can run a cost projection here.
Sounds like you probably have a 3 ton unit which is far from a KW guzzler.
$500 wouldn't be outrageous for a month of electric resistance heat but make sure to check that the following months bill is an actual read and not estimated.
Regarding the mound of dirt left behind, usually we "crown" new digs to compensate for natural settling. We also are unable to finish a grade until the following spring because of settling.
Brevity and division of paragraphs will help us collect answers from your responses.
Joe

I'm still collecting the info you need but I have two questions:

Is electric resistance heat what the compressor gives out? The backup 10kw emerg heater has never been on - I was told to leave breaker off.

How do I make paragraphs? My answer is typed in paragraphs but is printed as one big mess. Is it because I have a Mac? This time paragraphs are triple spaced - maybe that will work...

Thanks for your interest joe.ami - will reply when I have all in/out data

That did it.....
What thermostat do you have.
Aux., emergency and electric resistance are all the same. I think the aux. you are refering to is stage 2 on your compressor. When an aux. coil is employed your heat pump actually becomes 3 stage, "emergency heat" would then be your electric aux coil.
I confess I confused some of the posts I read last night and when I tried to re read your first post the lack of division crossed my eyes. Therefore some of what I said doesn't pertain (i.e. $500 of electric resistance).
j

Happened to notice on the other thread that you indicated 3 levels of fan velocity. I should note that even with the aux breaker shut off, you would still have the heat pump ramping up the blower if the coils were called for by the thermostat.
J

Yes, 3 fan levels - the aux heat level on most of time but electric heat breaker off. Some info to start w/o temp rdgs. Thermostat is Next Energy Digital Geothermal ATP Grundflos Flow Centre AFCG1C1-1 Tranq 27 TTV038EC01ALKS with Desuperheater option 3 ton vertical loop (180' each supposedly) in urban setting House is 1 1/2 storey brick, insulated attic Heat load calc pre-installation was 45 000 BTU's /hour I have a BIN anaysis for different temps -do you want that page fwded? Elec costs 5.8/kwh for first 1000, 6.7/kwh after that. Last month was 2036 kwh cp to 368 last year in much colder temp. Actual reading not estimate

This time no paragraphs - how does it decide??? Sorry

its ok, short post lol
sent you a pm with my email, send me what you have, I'll run some cost projections see how they compare. Need closest major city as well.
Joe

Closest city - Hamilton Ontario. Wish you lived close enough to pay for a service call! Spec sheets given in 08 as I first began research, system in April 09.



Not sure if this will work - have them as jpeg files but can copy and paste.



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First thing I noticed in what you sent me Taffy was a balance pt of 7* (I presume F). You commented that the unit was operating in 3rd stage often, what is the outside temp.? If more than 7* out only rarely should you have aux usage.
Has system been running 3rd stage in double digit temps? If so then the installer's own data would be hard for him to ignore.
We need you to get a probe type thermometer and try to give us entering and leaving water temps. Also let me know a brief temp history.
I'll check with momma, if she wants to go to Niagra falls this Spring maybe we can drop by on the way, but hopefully your situation is resolved by then.
Joe

Recent experience makes me doubt that my installer understands his printouts - except as a sales tool for suckers. Nov-early Dec ranged from approx 5-15'C (41-59'F). Aux was on 1/3 of time. From there to present it's ranged from 5'- -10'C (41-14'F). Aux is on about 1/2 of time, sometimes for 2 hours at a time when thermostat is reading only a degree below setpoint. House is a comfortable temperature (at least we're not cold like Wayne!). Electric heat breaker is still off. Today is -16'c and more with wind chill. Again, house is warm enough but aux fan on a lot. Have new digital therm as old one died in Christmas turkey. Do I take the readings where the pipes enter/leave the unit? If so, the brass screws read 32.7'F (i could scrape frost off with my nail) and 41.1'F. If not, direct me to correct spot. Again, thanks for your patience.

Taffy,
When you say aux was on a third of the time at 5 to 15, are we talking stage 2 or 3? if you mean stage 2 that's definately okay, if you mean stage 3 the reason it's on so long is because you've disabled the electric coils. Where they might satisfy the load in 10 minutes, they can't because they are turned of so the thermostat keeps trying to run them.
I need you to adopt the terminology of 1, 2 or 3rd stage for our discussion so that we don't mistake 2nd stage for electric resistance heat.
J

Stage 1 - heating


Stage 2 - heating 2


Stage 3 -aux heat (electric resistance heat if breaker were on)

If Stage 3 is on so much with the electric emergency heat disabled, are you saying I should put on the electric breaker?


Which will use more electricity (my bottom line!)? But if Stage 3 is coming on at 40-50' F, that's a lot of electric coil heat...............

I had a post that didn't go through for some reason yesterday.
The thrust of it was that it looks like your usage last month was ~$180.00 if their average kw hour cost is correct at .113 (I don't understand the numbers you posted, take your electric bill and divide by kws used to give us the average cost with tax, delivery etc. included).
Their projections were ~750/yr to heat your house so $180 would be a little high.
I notice I did misunderstand your post about temps (did not pick up the C vs F). From the data you sent me balance point was around 7*F so if 3rd stage is running when it's 40*F out that would be nuts unless your making huge thermostat adjustments.
My point was you wouldn't run very long in 3rd stage if the electric heater actually came on. For the time being as long as you are not uncomfortable, do not turn on the breaker.
You gave us entering water temp (EWT), but not leaving water temp (LWT). Also check entering and leaving air temps for us (EAT/LAT).
J

While waiting to take temps at various stages, I calculated my gas/electric usage for the last 2 years in the same time period (Oct 3-Dec 3) 2007 - mild weather - gas/electric - $128 2008 - cold weather - gas/electric - $189 2009 - mild weather - no gas/ just electric - $393 Kwh used over last year's was (2036-411) 1625 Cost per kwh - 0.193 I am making no thermostat adjustments - it's on permanent hold at 71' F. I agree with you, Joe, to have stage 3 running that often when temps have been well above 7' F is nuts. That's my problem!( except for 2-3 days when it was about 7'F this week) Here's my average of three readings - all in F': (Hope paragraphs work) stage 1- EWT - 39.8' LWT - 33.6' EAT - 68.5' LAT - 81.1' stage 2 - EWT - 38.1' LWT - 31.1' EAT - 68.9' LAT - 83.0' stage 3 - EWT - 40.0' LWT - 33.0' EAT - 68.2' LAT - 80.1' I am not sure if my water temps are being taken at the right spot - I put thermometer on the pipe right as it enters/leaves the Tranq unit. The nut that is exposed on the LWT pipe is always coated with a layer of frost/ice. Is that normal? Would a picture of my hookup help at all? I'm just thinking of Fred's comment on another thread about his satisfaction with Tranquility in Alberta, no less, where only the brave decide to winter, let alone risk geothermal, (I have family in Edmonton........) but only after a company came in to do troubleshooting. Thanks for all the help. Taffy

Repeat message to see if in paragraphs with "Quick Reply format:

While waiting to take temps at various stages, I calculated my gas/electric usage for the last 2 years in the same time period (Oct 3-Dec 3)

2007 - mild weather - gas/electric - $128

2008 - cold weather - gas/electric - $189

2009 - mild weather - no gas/ just electric - $393


Kwh used over last year's was (2036-411) 1625
Cost per kwh - 0.193


I am making no thermostat adjustments - it's on permanent hold at 71' F. I agree with you, Joe, to have stage 3 running that often when temps have been well above 7' F is nuts. That's my problem!( except for 2-3 days when it was about 7'F this week)

Here's my average of three readings - all in F': (Hope paragraphs work)

stage 1- EWT - 39.8' LWT - 33.6' EAT - 68.5' LAT - 81.1'


stage 2 - EWT - 38.1' LWT - 31.1' EAT - 68.9' LAT - 83.0'


stage 3 - EWT - 40.0' LWT - 33.0' EAT - 68.2' LAT - 80.1'



I am not sure if my water temps are being taken at the right spot - I put thermometer on the pipe right as it enters/leaves the Tranq unit. The nut that is exposed on the LWT pipe is always coated with a layer of frost/ice. Is that normal?

Would a picture of my hookup help at all? I'm just thinking of Fred's comment on another thread about his satisfaction with Tranquility in Alberta, no less, where only the brave decide to winter, let alone risk geothermal, (I have family in Edmonton........) but only after a company came in to do troubleshooting.

Thanks for all the help.

Taffy