Posted By SJWFARMER on 22 Jun 2011 08:55 PM
I installed closed loop geothermal heat last fall. S & B did the work with Econar supplying the unit. So far I've had a compressor replaced due to excessive noise; then had the whole unit replaced because the new compressor was still noisy. I've been upgraded from a 7 ton to an 8 ton which I've heard may cause problems; S & B tried to re-install my wood boiler in March and imploded the boiler itself; they were back last week because the thermostat supplied with the unit was not programmed correctly and would not run AC on our only hot day this summer, now everyone involved is pointing the finger at each other and nothing is getting done - nothing but a long list of complaints. I'm getting ready to just throw the whole works out and go back to a boiler. Anyone out there have any advice? Has anyone else had these types of problems with S & B out of Ham Lake or Econar or Geosystems as they are known now?

I suggest you start a new thread. Yes I dealt with Econar failure secondary to designer incompetence, and then paired with very inefficient Econar pumping equipment, resulting us to be called in to rescue the project. I will be happy to elaborate on this in your new thread.

I have installed two Econar units out of ~100.  The Econar units were the combo units.

 

Unit no. 1: The first one ran fine for a while, but the control board failed.  Look inside the unit behind the control board.  It may have to be pulled out.  Do you see a tiny hole?  Plug it up!  I have mentioned this to Econar's warranty dept, but they didn't listen!  We diagnosed a bad control board, but then waited until it came in to replace it. When I pulled the bad control board out, I noticed that it was dirty in the spot where there was a hole behind the unit.  It worked, once I cleaned the dirt off!  I sent the new control board back Econar, and they were were going to charge me a restocking fee!  I complained, so they did not charge me.

 

Unit no. 2: we plugged the hole behind the control board, and it ran fine for 6 months or so.  Bad compressor!  They shipped it to me free, but I paid for the shipping!  If I remember right, it was $200 for the shipping!  I won't use Econar again.   

There is not much content (if you wanted diagnostic opinions) in your post.
Econar has little enough foot print that I've not seen many. Have no opinion on their performance.
j

OK, here is my Econar story.
Install by another company 2 years ago.

11 ton W-W, radiant floors, 2 air handlers for A/C. Worst install I have ever seen. Heatpump was supposedly running without enough output (house was cold, A/C nor performing), owner complaining about high electrical bills in excess of $1000 monthly. No startup protocol. Heat pump was literally on fire and burned!

After 3 discussions with the owner/builder and Econar (initial installer claimed everything was fine and had abandoned the customer/builder), Econar agreed to ship a new unit at 20% of the costs (since no performance or start up data was present and they were getting a brand new R410 unit instead of the R22). Econar's condition was that another installer performs the install of the new heatpump. The builder hired his regular mechanical company, which called me for help to check the design. We ended up redesigning the pond loop, which was underperforming. The heatpump was fine, the only thing which bugs me about it is that it that you cannot control the 2 compressors individually, meaning staging them.


So one of the many problems was that the source flow for the 11 ton unit turned not to be enough. The pressure drop of the original loopfield and header pipe alone was 44ft head at 30 gpm (plus 6 psi for the heatpump). So we looked at the Econar flowcenter they call PumpPak. The standard pumps on it are Grundfos 26-116. For those who do not know, the 26-116 makes 10% more ft head, but uses 50% more watts than the 26-99. It is a very inefficient pump, and should only be used when you need only a little bit more than a 26-99 can handle.
They also recommend 26-116 on the load site in the installationmanual. Go figure....


So (3) 26-116 make 30 ft head at 30 gpm, so even adding another pump did not do it (what was recommended by Econar). Plus making it worse, the whole pump center uses 1" pipe to pump 30 GPM through. So we reconfigured the loopfield and replaced the entire Pumpak which would have 1540 watts when running (with 3000 H annually at 14c/kwh, that is $645 per year only for the pumping). with a single Wilo giving us all the pumping power we need, doing it at 440 watts (running at $185 annually).
So while the new heatpump performed fine the first winter, the design of the flowcenter with the standard inefficient pumps and a 1" pipe make me question if they really understand the concept of flow, which is at the heart of understanding geo.
It goes against my credo to make geo work, but to make it not work as efficient as possible.

I agree - efficiency (and a working system) is what the customer is purchasing. Seems to me that every installer should have the equipment and knowledge to check COP before they call it finished.

I sell bang for the buck.
We have had more than one discussion about different areas and different electric rates impacting design.
Doc's customers pay twice per kwh what some of mine do and that impacts our respective designs.
My customers are better served with lower installation costs and greater auxiliary contribution. This is not necessarily the "most efficient" design, but it can save my customers $3,000+ on installation cost while only driving operating cost up ~$50/yr.
......but we digress.....
SJW, still out there? Did you want help or just sympathetic ears?
Can't help without feedback.
j

Yes, efficiency on a $ (installation and operation) to heat/cool the house basis. If you can't measure COP, then you have no idea what it is.

My point was that the 26-116 are more upfront and cost much more to operate, but don't give you much more pumping power. That is their standard on their flow center. Also to put 3-4 pumps in series, but to keep the pipes within the flowcenter at 1", does not make sense either. So this is a flowcenter which does not save you any upfront money, but costs much more to operate. The design does not come from an installer, but from the manufacturer (Econar). Not good...

Looking for some help. I've got a walkout rambler, 3600 feet with the basement. I was heating with an outside boiler. I have in-floor in the basement and forced air upstairs. We kept the basement pretty warm 75 or so and the upper level at 70. I had geo installed last fall. S & B Geothermal out of Ham Lake did the install and Econar supplied the equipment. The first mistake I made was listening to them and cutting my boiler off. The geo unit is a 7 ton and I have seven 800 foot slinkies buried eight feet deep. The home stayed warm enough in December but the noise level was so bad we could not sleep in our bedroom. S & B came out numerous times and basically said I would get used to it. I wasn't sure what the noise level should be at so I checked with a few other places they had worked and found them to be fairly quiet. I finally complained enough that Econar got involved and after numerous visits decided the compressor was bad. They sent their readings to Copeland, the compressor manufacturers, who played around for two months before deciding, yes, it's too loud and sent a new 7 ton compressor to be installed. It was just as bad or worse. A few more months went by while Econar and Copeland stalled and I found out there were two other installs that had the same problem. AFter months of stalling S & B, Copeland and Econar finally decided to cut their losses and put in a larger 8 ton unit, but it would take a few months to get parts etc. We decided to have the wood boiler hooked up and go back to heating with that until the noise problem got solved.

After a bunch of grumbling S & B came out to hook it up and while draining the boiler decided to pressurize the system and imploded it. Now the boiler is junked; the geo is torn up and doesn't work and I have propane forced air in the upstairs of the house only. The only way I could heat my shop is if I would fire up the boiler; basically overheat the shop so it would last the day and night and then extinguish the fire in the boiler so it wouldn't boil over.

The 8 ton unit was finally installed and is fairly quiet. It's at least acceptable.

The problems I have now are: We've only used the heat system for a week in May. I've heard from different people that the larger system may drain the heat out of my loop field too quickly and freeze it up by spring. Econar and S & B say it probably won't happen, other installers say it's very possible. I'm not sure how to go about finding out until next spring.

The reason I put the geo in was to cut back on the wood and basically cut out carbon footprint. I don't think the bigger system is going to be as efficient as the 7 ton unit and is going to be more expensive to use and also use more power.

I'm still not sure the system is going to work. On the only hot days we had this summer our air conditioning did not work. S & B came out at 11:30 a.m. and worked on it until 1:30 or so and finally found the thermostat had been programmed incorrectly. By the time the house had cooled off the temperature outside had dropped to 60 degrees.

Our home is 9 years old and when we use the geo we blow breakers a couple of times a day. The electrician tells me the wiring is fine so it must be the compressor; Econar tells me it's the wiring; S & B says they don't know and everyone tells me it's something I have to fiure out somehow.

I've got an outdoor boiler that's partially hooked into the system but the boiler itself is junk. I've got three companies telling me it's someone's problem, just not theirs. I'd like to have the boiler replaced and plumbed back into the system but I'm having a real problem getting anyone to take responsibility. S & B says it's partially Econar's fault, Econar says no way, copeland just ignores everything and I can't afford to buy a different boiler and just eat the cost. I'm not sure if the work that's been done is done correctly.

Is there anyone out there who designs systems but is impartial as to installers and suppliers? I've gotten so many conflicting opinions and ideas that I don't know if I'm afoot or horseback any more. I'm at the point of just trying to get my boiler back and taking this whole system out of the home completely.

The heatload of the house will determine the amount of heat sucked out of the ground, not the size of the heatpump. An 8 ton unit will not run your loop more down than a 7 ton, and is unlikely to run significantly less efficient. As far as I know it is a large single compressor which has a large starting amperage, ask for a softstart kit which can significantly reduce the startup amperage. Or get bigger breakers!

You first Go to guy should be your installer. They are the ones contracted to them. There are many reasons why A/C does not work, especially when a hydronic heatpump switches over the first time from winter to summer.Just keep asking your installer to fix it. It does not sound too bad of a problem.

SJ,
It does sound like you have made some headway towards resolution on geo end. As long as it is heating and cooling that's a good start. A geo system will only take the BTU's out of the ground it needs, so if 7 tons is called for, it will only extract that many BTUs. So like Doc I think you are fine there.
Again I'm with Doc on a softstart kit as well. Can''t hang with larger breaker without ensuring wire to the unit is adequately sized for higher draw.

What I'm having trouble with is how pressurizing the system caused radiation to implode and wrecked boiler.
Imbedded radiant pipe is tested at 100psi, so did they exceed that? Did pipe implode or explode?
So here's the thing, if they only put 100PSI or less on your radiant piping and it failed,then the piping installer may be the one at fault, or your pipe may have been worn out to begin with which makes it a failure of lifespan, or if it's new and wouldn't take that kind of pressure then the pipe manufacturer may be at fault.
Further there are recalls, buy-backs and class action suits on many of the radiant tube systems which could certainly suggest your installer was more victim than culprit if you had one of these.
It is also not clear to me what damage was caused to boiler.

So while a knee jerk reaction might suggest attorney, I'd want a little more info first.
j

Joe:
The Boiler implosion didn't have anyting to do with the Geo and/or the radiant tubing. The boiler was supposed to be hooked up to take the place of the geo because the geo was so extremely noisy. S & B came out and started changing the anti-freeze in the boiler, which wasn't necessary because the two systems were not supposed to mix, but were supposed to use a heat exchanger to run hot water into the holding tank, But when they started to drain the anti - freeze it wasn't coming out fast enough so they plugged the relief valve and pressurized the boiler system, they said to 17 lbs but I'm not sure. Anyway there is a large sign on the boiler saying to never pressurize the system. The boiler imploded and actually broke welds in the firebox. Now I can't regulate the heat by stopping the fans in the boiler and it runs until the fire dies out. The fire box has gone from approximately 3.5 feet across to about a foot and a half. The whole stove fills with smoke unless I leave the door open. According to the manufacturer the boiler is pretty well ruined because it will cost more to tear it down and repair than a new unit. Now I have S & B telling me it's not all their fault, econar saying it's not their problem and copeland staying out of it completely. If it wasn't for the bad compressors reconnecting the boiler would never have been considered, but I don't feel I should pay for any part of it.

Now I've got one person telling me Econar is going to help out and I have Econar saying they never said that. Everyone is telling me to wait until they can work through it and I see a repeat of last year where I wind up sleeping on the couch and paying for propane.

I'd rather not hire an attorney but I can't see just sitting around anymore and waiting for winter. I'd like to have something done now.

I can't see any liability copeland would have and Econar seems a stretch unless their tech told installer to pressurize boiler.
Installer seems to have blood on their hands and I wouldn't wait til winter either.
I would tell them my intent to hire an attorney with the footnote that you intend to recover anything you spend on propane this year (just in case they want to drag their feet) if they do not repair or replace the boiler. Remember they don't pay retail for labor, so they may find boiler repair more economical.
Good Luck,
Joe

As a former employee of Econar my suggestion to you would be dump the entire unit. Get something from another company all together, and not Aprilaire or Hydroheat. These three are all in one.
If you only knew how many rebuild units came through the plant in Appleton. Rebuilds and reworks sit on the side lines literally for weeks on end, sometimes months. Priority is unknown to the company, even if they tell you it's priority. The people who are managers in the plant are total lushes.
Good luck to you getting anywhere with your unit.

Exworker,
there are many ways you could have said the same thing without coming off as a disgruntled ex employee.
j

Not to mention opening yourself up to a liable suit. Once it's on the web, it's there FOREVER!

Bergy

Sometimes, it's refreshing to hear someone call it the way it really is. I hate political correctness, reminds me too much of crooked lawyers and crooked politicians (they all are).

Posted By Sotechnically1 on 19 Jul 2011 03:11 PM
Sometimes, it's refreshing to hear someone call it the way it really is. I hate political correctness, reminds me too much of crooked lawyers and crooked politicians (they all are).

Sometimes credibility can be tainted by a particular axe someone is grinding. So while you may find the comments "refreshing" the content has little value without that context.
j

i use to be a econar installer we had bad units right out of the box invision type ... can you help with some question i have about the invisiion line thank you

Can who help?
If you mean me, I don't have a ton of encounters with Econar.
Joe