The Saga of 4127 Crosby Rd. Begins...
Last Post 11 Jul 2009 10:59 AM by aeridyne. 3 Replies.
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aeridyneUser is Offline
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10 Jul 2009 10:01 PM
Hello all, seems there are some very knowledgeable folks here, very refreshing after attempting to deal with big box reps and the like... an experience that left me quite a bit... underwhelmed lets say.

I probably shouldn't lay out the entire complexity of my project all at once, I doubt anyone would read it all, and if they did, coherency to the answers might be complicated and require a table of contents, lol.

So heres the gist of it, I have a home that I just bought, i had the intention of fixing it up quick to a nice environment and I was going to let my sister and her new baby come live with me and be happy.

Well, fairy tales don't come true very often. I'll leave all the horrible mess of the real estate portion out, suffice to say, this was the best I found for my budget with a nice piece of land to work with.

After turning on the heat in march, the old clunker furnace worked, one of the few things that does still work in the house, unfortunately, while granted it is march in michigan, it was not that cold, we had not moved into the house yet, and the thermostat was at minimum, the bill was 260 bucks for a partial month even under these not even inhabited conditions... OUCH!

I had already planned to update some things, now I was seeing, that I had quite a bit more than I anticipated on my hands...

With the help of my dad and my uncle, we have taken off all the wall coverings, and most of the ceilings to reveal the "bones" as I've seen it referred to here, which is actually exactly the term I have been using curiously enough. Well, the bones aren't in horrible shape, but the organs and pretty much every major system is seriously fubar'd.

Want to know what kind of insulation i found? This is funny and depressing at the same time, depending on whether you see yourself in my shoes, or casually observing such events and finding the misfortune most entertaining. What I found in the best areas, was molded and rotting fiberglass batts, the 2nd tier was old insulation with aluminum backing that was like cardboard? the 3rd found in the walls was just plain old newspaper, I have a number of pages from the local journal dating back to the fifties, kind of cool, but not so great insulation! lol. For the ceilings it was a mix of vermiculite, and more moldy fiberglass.

It took more weeks to rid all of this nastiness, I'm sure the garbage man hates me at this point for the three week period of having twenty contractor garbage bags at the curb and other assorted goodies, hehe.

The home's wiring and plumbing are atrocious and blown apart in that order, but that's for later.

Now another thing of note that comes into play, is that the foundation has some issues. The biggest problem is the north wall of the basement, which it is a full basement by the way, has a huge crack all the way down it, so large, that I shined a flashlight in, and could see the crack was clean through to the other side of the block, at least I couldn't see the dirt...

There are lots of other cracks as well, but that one stands out as the worst by far.

I can see that the drain tiles have been recently redone, actually they were done in 99' by a man with the nickname "Fuzzy" how do i now this? His name is written in a portion toward the southeast corner. God bless him as I'm pretty sure he's the guy who built the place in 1947 and raised a family of four there according to the neighbors, but fuzzy was not a rich man, and he did things that "worked" but weren't necesarrily right. Anyway, I think that addressed the water problem, as there was no water leakage since I've owned the house for a few months now, HOWEVER, this is subject to change, and kind of has me worried, the water table is far below it's normal level, there has been extensive work going on just down the street for a major pipeline of some sort, probably the sewer, and they have been pumping down the table since before I even looked at the house. I want to fix these walls now, before they potentially become a problem again.

So I had a guy come out and give me an estimate on fixing the walls, concrete guy, he gave me numbers that were consistent with others, but in my opinion ludicrous... Why, because, I can have that same excavator I'm going to need anyway dig me a hole for a full basement on the front and back walls for under 1000 bucks, and he's a good guy, so I have faith he can do a good job even with the messed up walls, and I have found a good mason that is willing to put on an addition foundation for the front and back for under 7k. So i figured, why not just make these walls interior, and then my water problem goes away, i still intend on fixing the bow in the heavily damaged wall, and I know the inspector will give me shat if i don't fill the both with concrete... so i have no choice there, oh well.

So at this point, my problems had become a project that included adding on, but wait, act now and as an added bonus... i would have overlooked other issues.

The roof on the 2nd floor was done in 2x4, way to overdo it man. I knew there was potential issues, but i had hoped it was due to water warping the sheathing, it was both. So once we had the 2nd floor roof of, i realized that had to go as well.

So at this point, I'm looking at two major portions of the structure being modified, the entire roof was coming off, and building two additions onto the existing structure, one on front, and one on back. All three of these were not for the purpose of making the place bigger, but to address issues with the structure, and if doing so, might as well capitalize on that, and formulate some sort of gain in right?

So what I wanted to do, was on the front addition, beam the first level ceiling and open up the living room. There is a massive fireplace with three open sides to it, but wasn't enough room to fit in a few couches comfortably and enjoy it! Front additon and removing the existing exterior wall that would have separated the two solves this. The house lacked space seriously as it was, the back addition was decided to be bedroom space, as the existing "master suite" was a joke. I figured that since I was putting on new foundations for these additions, and the roof was coming off the existing structure, why not go up too, the opportunity is there, as pretty much everything in the house is being redone, so I have intended the plans to go up on the front and back story as well, build in a full 2nd floor over the existing structure (it was only 1.5 story before) and put a knee wall above the 2nd level and a decent pitch, to get some attic space that you can stand up in.

So at this point, i have a pretty good idea of the "bones" of the struture, well, not so much really, and working with a structural engineer has left me extrememly frustrated by the way, maybe it's just my area, but there seems to be a general lack of building knowledge... EVERY single framer, of which the count is somewhere around ten now, that I have brought to the site, and asked questions of, clearly, had no better idea of how to do anything, than I do at this point after reading and researching for month, and that is sad, but true.

After getting so fed up with the engineer, the framers that all seemed baffled by the beams that would be necessary for the open spaced etc, I about lost my mind, and I do mean literally, I feel bad that after telling my sis that I would make it easy on her with a place to stay, that I still have this shell of a house to deal with, however, I couldn't have done any better I suppose, as with the budget I have to do it, along with the general seeming lack of knowledge, i don't know what else I could have done. I have already been doing my own research to "supplement" what the builders and such were having the most trouble answering for me, at this point however, it seems I am the home owner, general contractor, and every sub, I have to learn it all, or this jumbled mess I have will never be a home, and I can't have that...

The structure itself, I still have some questions on, but I've got that largely figured out, and I'll save that for later on in this post, for now I wanted to present my story, and then start with a few components, and gradually weave them all together.

I figured a good place to start, is on the foundation, and work my way up.

Now I have a good mason, so that's at least one thing I don't have to figure out completely, however, he does things the old way, so if i want something done different, I have to guide him.

I pretty much have a decent idea how best to do the foundations (at least I think I do). Dig the holes, put in pea gravel, cover with 6 mil or heavier plastic. (how do you seal this plastic at this point anyway?) lay some xps foam over that, i figured most likely 2" of it. (I figured unlikely but do i have to seal this anywhere?) and then pour the concrete right over the foam? Oh, i should mention the walls will be concrete block, 10".

The new foundation walls will have to be far away enough from the existing ones to not undermine the existing footings and such, he said one foot, then two foot later, not sure if that was at different areas or what (he was breaking up so it was hard to hear). I figured partial block walls around the perimiter of the existing walls, and of course full walls anywhere that will be new and a wall does not already exist. Probably 13 courses of block for the additions, the existing basement is 10 courses.

It would probably be helpful for anyone who wishes to help to see the drawings I have made, I have them all in pdf form, I'll try to shrink the images down enough to post them. Basically I thought a good way to not put any more stress on the existing north and south walls, was to platform up from the new foundations and tie the two platforms where the walls would butt up together with metal hardware, so essentially where ever there is already a wall, there will be another right next to it for these additions, and there is a side wall for each that will meet along with the north and south longer walls.  This was the only design that I could conceive that would not put additonal stress on the existing structure (except for the heavier roof and extra attic space i will be adding on) was by doing fairly independent platforms for the front and back additions.

By the way, all comments and suggestions for anything I present here are most welcome, even where i have not posed an actual question, throughout this process i've had people point out a great many things that completely change everything...

How best to waterproof these outside walls below grade is another concern of mine, I know that the old style asphalt stuff will crack right with a wall, which doesn't seem real smart. I wanted to add xps to the exterior of all the portions of the house that I will have access to, which will be below grade for the two additions plus one wall of the existing structure (will have to be dug deeper for new drain tiles, so i can rewaterproof and add below grade insulation here) and the entire structure above grade, as I will be adding xps or eps to the entire exterior and residing. I wish that I could do the entire surface below grade, but I can't dig up the entire house, so I'm going to be restricted to the areas I will already have exposed.

With that in mind, things got kind of complicated for me at this point, I don't know how best to add the xps onto the existing walls, and the new walls, and waterproof the whole thing, and then carry the xps right on up all the way to the soffits on the roof...

I realize that this will likely have to have a multitiered approach, one for below grade and one for the just below grade to a few feet above ground level to make it to the siding. From there i can just cover with siding and tape the joints, it's getting to that point I don't have the foggiest on.

One thing I should point out that influences absolutely everything is the lack of funds to do everything. I found a good cheap supplier of the xps, so I should be able to swing that. But I've got only 15k to do this house top to bottom, and I know it's not enough, but I have to come as close as possible, so please, don't tell me I'm retarded, just work with me here, it has to be done, there is no alternative for me.

Being constrained, a cheap option i thought of was simply using 6 mil plasic all around the below grade part, and using something strong to seal it on, perhaps some sort of fasteners, a tape and the a rubber compound like ames blue max around just the perimiter (that stuff is kinda expensive). But then i wondered if it was that easy, how come no one had done it before? ... perhaps there is a flaw I am overlooking.

I suppose i should leave it there at this point, I've as per usual already posted a novel to start with, foundation first... heh.

Many thanks to anyone who has not fallen asleep reading thus far, haha.

I thought about simply covering
sgo70User is Offline
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11 Jul 2009 09:38 AM
Wow, two coffee read! I'm no expert but I've been researching a ton over the last 6-8 months. I try not to get overwhelmed with the entire project but break it down into sections and focus on them, keeping in mind the next step. Right now I'm focusing on the foundation. I have a friend trenching it all out and another coming in to sandblast it all clean, otherwise it would be a wire brush and scrubbing to get all the old tar off. From there I'll fill any cracks with hydraulic cement, I think there's only one so far. Next I'll apply the Blue skin primer and then I'm gonna wrap it in Blueskin, it's about $138 for 200 sq feet, so about $800. http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?D=901746&Ntt=901746&catalogId=10051&langId=-15&storeId=10051&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntx=mode+matchall&recN=0&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumber From there is the insulation, not sure on how thick but it sure isn't cheap, I can get 2lb closed cell spray foam cheaper. Then all this is getting covered with dimple sheeting which may be overkill but I don't want to do it again. If you like to do things yourself I priced out a 24'x18' addition for my house using ICF's, all in including concrete, rebar, and blocks was about $4600 or closer to $8000 if I got it done for me. Good luck, keep us posted. Sean
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11 Jul 2009 09:40 AM
I don't know why everything I type comes out as one long paragraph after I submit it????????
aeridyneUser is Offline
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11 Jul 2009 10:59 AM
Hmm, I didn't think about removing the old stuff, wonder if a pressure washer would do the trick, of course, I'd rather not have that stuff falling into the dirt as I have a well, with that in mind, i don't know how I would get the old stuff off...

Hydraulic Cement is a good idea, I should do that for the one exterior wall that will still be exterior.

That blue skin stuff is expensive, it comes in the pail as well, wonder which comes out to cover more in total? I looked at a few other really similar products from Ames, blue max and their concrete and block below grade coverings, both rubber based. I'm thinking these would come out to be too much money though, so I'm looking for a way to do it cheaper but just as good. I'm wondering how much that dimple membrane stuff costs? I heard someone say that the membrane applications are usually only good for 5 or 10 years, which is crap, I want to come up with solutions that last a LONG time, hence why i've always liked stone.

that's a hefty price on the ICFs, they are good of course so you get a good value for the money, however I don't have that much, my mason is going to do the basement on the front and back for about 6 or 7k, and the excavator only wants a grand, and the front addition will be about 8x21 and the back is going to be 20x22, it's a damn good price for concrete block with the floor poured, drain tiles, footings, the whole shebang. That leaves me with about 12k to work with for everything else, the insulation on the interior and exterior, windows, roofing, the rough framing, electrical, plumbing, and siding. Sounds like a stretch, yeah whatever, I'm gonna do it one way or another. The rough framing, roofing and siding are going to be the next biggest costs. I found a place that has really great prices on xps, eps, and iso. They can sell me and entire 53' trailer of the whichever one i pick, likely i'll go with the xps, a truckload of that is 6300, but I'm hoping I don't need that much. siding and roofing together could come to 6k normally, so my money is being spent to the max any number of ways, lol, the framing and foundation come first, and the framing and foundation are what is going to cost me the most, so I have to find places that I can get things cheaper, and I certainly can't spend 800 bucks on just the damn below grade waterproofing... Any other ideas for the waterproofing?
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