Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 27 Jun 2013 11:20 PM |
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Here is what Tyvek looks like after 30 years sitting behind wood siding. I was surprised to see that the Tyvek deteriorated so badly behind the
siding after 30 years. It probably failed 10 years before at the 20 year
mark. You can see the wood behind it is rotted.  See GBA Article |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 28 Jun 2013 02:10 AM |
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It appears as if it has lost it's ability to block air movement. |
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jdebree
Basic Member
Posts:497
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| 28 Jun 2013 06:39 AM |
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Needs more tape. |
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JimGagnepain
New Member
Posts:61
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| 28 Jun 2013 12:15 PM |
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My guess is that slugs did that kind of damage. Was there dirt touching the siding?
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 28 Jun 2013 12:56 PM |
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It would be interesting to know exactly what caused this and if the problem has been fixed in modern versions. My guess is that this required wet wood against the Tyvek and wouldn't happen in a case with Tyvek covered by stucco, fiber cement or vinyl siding. |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 28 Jun 2013 01:55 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 28 Jun 2013 12:56 PM
It would be interesting to know exactly what caused this and if the problem has been fixed in modern versions. My guess is that this required wet wood against the Tyvek and wouldn't happen in a case with Tyvek covered by stucco, fiber cement or vinyl siding.
According to the author/photographer, those are spruce clapboards, installed without benefit of rainscreen gap. Any type of gap would have kept it reasonably dry under clapboards, but the under stucco the tannins in the plywood sheathing would be enough to have issues, given the high moisture drives of stucco. |
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DickRussell
Basic Member
Posts:182
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| 28 Jun 2013 02:18 PM |
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30-year old Tyvek? There's an interesting blog over on GBA about how far WRBs have come: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/energy-solutions/what-s-new-water-resistive-barriers |
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jgeorgeiron
New Member
Posts:17
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| 28 Jun 2013 04:49 PM |
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@HOW
Yes you did. Quit your complaining, you checked the box - no one made you do it....and guess what, you can always unsubscribe if you'd like. Relax...it's email...no one is leaving messages on your door or flooding your voice mail. Others have already asked you to stop....because WE didn't sign up for that.
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Eric Anderson
Basic Member
Posts:441
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| 28 Jun 2013 06:04 PM |
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I have observed this in remodels multiple times. I trust 30 lb felt a lot more. 50 year old felt usualy still looks OK. Lots of code officials want to see it though.
eric |
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 28 Jun 2013 07:26 PM |
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During remodels, I have seen 35 year old felt behind wall facades decomposed. My guess is that high humidity and lots of rain here in the southeast was more than the felt could withstand. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 28 Jun 2013 11:38 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 28 Jun 2013 07:26 PM
During remodels, I have seen 35 year old felt behind wall facades decomposed. My guess is that high humidity and lots of rain here in the southeast was more than the felt could withstand.
There is a pattern here. Whether it's 30 year old Tyvek or 30 year old felt/tar paper, these materials don't last a lifetime and fail well before most people thought they would. The problem with Tyvek failing or tar paper failing behind a wall assembly is that it will then allows moisture get to the OSB sheathing and begin to rot that. Most homeowners will have no clue that they failed until significant damage is seen from the inside or outside. If a home has to be completely stripped to its bones every 30 years, it pretty much destroys the whole "green" idea. Let alone the costs $$ involved. I would easily estimate that GBA article home cost a good chunk of change to completely redo. Ideally those homes that doubled up at the tar paper should see a longer life expectancy. Supposedly the new Tyvek can last a lot longer than the Tyvek of the 1980's. According to that article the Germans have developed some space age barriers that outperform Tyvek. |
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jdebree
Basic Member
Posts:497
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| 29 Jun 2013 07:11 AM |
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In all fairness- Do we know what that Tyvek went through before the siding was installed? Maybe a construction project that was halted for a year or so, and then they just threw the siding over it rather than replace it? I've seen some pretty ratty looking WRB's on slow-moving projects.
It does cause me concern about what will happen to all of the WRB's, tapes, glues, and caulks over the passage of years, though. Modern construction relies heavily upon all of this stuff. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 29 Jun 2013 09:22 AM |
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I sense an ICF/SCIP plug coming..... or maybe a plug for interior and exterior air barriers and large roof overhangs (it looks like ground splatter was involved here). |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 29 Jun 2013 03:48 PM |
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Posted By jdebree on 29 Jun 2013 07:11 AM
It does cause me concern about what will happen to all of the WRB's, tapes, glues, and caulks over the passage of years, though. Modern construction relies heavily upon all of this stuff.
Same here. Supposedly the new tapes, caulks, etc are better than the older products but it still has to go through the test of time. Most caulking is usually 3-5 years, I do believe the expandable foams work better in filling gaps like that. Actual galvanized steel flashing around windows is harder to work with but one knows that it will last a lifetime. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 29 Jun 2013 04:02 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 29 Jun 2013 09:22 AM
I sense an ICF/SCIP plug coming..... or maybe a plug for interior and exterior air barriers and large roof overhangs (it looks like ground splatter was involved here).
Hard to say if ground splatter caused this. It could have been the wall drainage conglomerating at the bottom and not draining quickly enough. They install weep screeds out here to help drain water from behind the stucco but over the years the screeds get clogged with dead bugs and debris. I pulled back a section of weep screed and about 30 dead crickets, grasshoppers, scorpions and roaches fell out. One builder had so many scorpion issues that he then started to not install the weep screed and just sealed the bottom of stucco wall. A few years went by and the walls started to rot from water not draining. It turned into a multi-million dollar lawsuit. I know strapping/furring the exterior wall is popular now but one would never attempt such a thing in the desert SW. You would literally have hundreds of scorpions living in your walls. They don't do siding out here that often, it's mostly stucco but one would have to be insane to leave a 1" gap between your wall and the finished siding with a gap at the bottom to allow for drainage. There was an episode of Infested where the Texas house had a brick facade with the 1" gap between the facade and the sheathing to allow for drainage. There were hundreds of scorpions living in there and they were infesting the home to the point where they wanted to condemn and burn the house to the ground. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 29 Jun 2013 04:27 PM |
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Lbear, Could termimesh be used to keep critters out of the drainage plane/rainscreen? See http://www.termimeshusa.com/ |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 29 Jun 2013 08:14 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 29 Jun 2013 04:27 PM
Lbear,
Could termimesh be used to keep critters out of the drainage plane/rainscreen? See http://www.termimeshusa.com/
It looks like a good product but the problem is that the holes are so small that they can stop the wall drainage plan from actually working as a drainage plane. It looks like it would trap water and take a long time to drain. I don't think the product would pass as a weep screed replacement. In heavy rains the weep screeds literally flow water like from a hose. Out here in Arizona some pest companies seal the weep screeds in heavy scorpion infestations and that leads to moisture/rot problems. It's a revolving door problem and I believe the only real solution is to have a design that doesn't leave gaps for insects to get into your wall assemblies. While furring a wall and leaving a 1" gap works well in Minnesota, it does not work well in the desert SW because of the bug issues we have. Termites and scorpions are not a problem a Minnesota resident faces but sure is a problem an Arizonan resident faces. Some buidlers try and resolve the problem by installing "pest tubes" in the walls during construction. It's basically a PEX type tube with small holes in it and they run it throughout the entire framing of the home. On the outside they install a station that a pest company connects to and blasts high pressure poisons and the PEX tubes then spray the toxin into the wall cavities. This must be done every 3 months. Not exactly "healthy" for the indoor air but what are your options? Getting stung by a scorpion every week or having your young child get stung and go to the ER where it costs $30k+ to treat them with anti-venom. It really irks me that one is left to these options unless one builds a custom home and uses ICF, SIPs, SCIPs that prevents these issues. An ICF home with a monolithic concrete core and with stucco applied directly to the EPS leaves no room for scorpions and solves the problem. No weep screeds are needed in such an application and you can stucco over the bottom of the ICF wall and stop the termites from tunneling since it would be solid stucco all the way to where the ICF wall meets the footer. |
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JimGagnepain
New Member
Posts:61
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| 29 Jun 2013 08:32 PM |
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Posted By Lbear on 29 Jun 2013 04:02 PM
Posted By jonr on 29 Jun 2013 09:22 AM
I sense an ICF/SCIP plug coming..... or maybe a plug for interior and exterior air barriers and large roof overhangs (it looks like ground splatter was involved here).
Hard to say if ground splatter caused this. It could have been the wall drainage conglomerating at the bottom and not draining quickly enough.
They install weep screeds out here to help drain water from behind the stucco but over the years the screeds get clogged with dead bugs and debris. I pulled back a section of weep screed and about 30 dead crickets, grasshoppers, scorpions and roaches fell out. One builder had so many scorpion issues that he then started to not install the weep screed and just sealed the bottom of stucco wall. A few years went by and the walls started to rot from water not draining. It turned into a multi-million dollar lawsuit.
I know strapping/furring the exterior wall is popular now but one would never attempt such a thing in the desert SW. You would literally have hundreds of scorpions living in your walls. They don't do siding out here that often, it's mostly stucco but one would have to be insane to leave a 1" gap between your wall and the finished siding with a gap at the bottom to allow for drainage. There was an episode of Infested where the Texas house had a brick facade with the 1" gap between the facade and the sheathing to allow for drainage. There were hundreds of scorpions living in there and they were infesting the home to the point where they wanted to condemn and burn the house to the ground.
Wow! Incredible... |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 30 Jun 2013 01:39 AM |
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Posted By JimGagnepain on 29 Jun 2013 08:32 PM
Wow! Incredible...
Here is a short YouTube video touching on the topic |
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FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
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| 30 Jun 2013 05:11 PM |
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Lbear - are yu suggesting that crickets and scorpions regularly bypass a venting system such as this?
http://www.cor-a-vent.com/siding-vent-sv-3.cfm |
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