anyone use this system, it looks neat:

http://www.varianthouse.com/house_building_system/


Brian

I do like the flooring system.  I would like to see more on that. 
How do you attatch exterior siding and drywall?  Doesn't look like there are any plastic ties?

They show one wall panel with plastic ties -- that's it. If you go here: http://www.varianthouse.com/construction_progress/popups2.php?pic=8 And here: http://www.varianthouse.com/construction_progress/popups2.php?pic=12 They appear to be tubes that are filled and they have a single vertical rebar in each tube. The only "joining of concrete" for all the tubes occurs at top of pour. They talk about "fixing" shelves, pictures, etc. here: http://www.varianthouse.com/construction/?variant=fixing Looks like a lot of work!

I wouldn't waste my time or money on it. My opinion only.
Joe

This system is a foam block system of which there is one made here in the US, Reddi-form? Now for economics, who believes they can buy the same product, an all-foam block made in Germany for the same proce as a stateside unit?

I saw a few issues in general
1. although U value is a viable reference, typically used here for windows and doors, I could not find any R-values for comparison?

2. I love this one..."An additional reduction of the energy consumption even up to a "passive house“ that makes-do without any customary heating system is perfectly possible with our 17.7 inch block elements. " In general, I interpret this as way beyond misleading...no customary heating source required???? I can see these flying off the truck now :-)

3. The attachment issue, whereas everything has to be glued because there are no attachment straps/studs, which is how we build here. As an example, even with the built-in studs, have you ever tried to get the rocker to apply glue, install the sheets with 4-5 screws and go on to the next one...yeah, right!

4. comment about adding scaffolding and then having to remove it. Gee, they show scaffolding/bracing in their own installation pics.

Unfortunately, I had to cancel IBS so I won't be over in the south hall having some discuss fun, but then I woul;dn't let a client buy this and install it.

Seems to be quite a lot of confusion regarding this system...to clarify
1) R-value per inch is 4.7. This is much higher than any ICF on the market today. I was at the IBS and form speaking with other ICF companies the highest value they had was 3.43 per inch
2) Apparently you do not read much news nor have any idea what a passive house is. They actually constructed a Passive house in Ludwigshafen Germany using Neopor material which requires only 3 liters of oil to heat the house for the entire year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house
http://www.smart-homeowner.com/basf/3liter.html

3) again you have not researched what you are talking about. http://www.varianthouse.com/house_building_system/?variant=elements if you would scroll down to the bottom part of the page you will notice that varianthouse does carry a full line of icf's with plastic webs for easy drywall attachment
4) What comment about scaffolding?

Hope that clears up some

I'm the first to admit that I'm not an ICF expert or even proficient. However I saw the Variant house display, along with several others, at the Builders show in Orlando last week and they do have a system with the plastic ties. As I understand it that is,at least now, their preferred system as it is easier to ship to the states. I don't remember if I even saw the system with the foam cross pieces. I'd suggest that you call the any company before making such blanket statements about any product as "I wouldn't waste my time or money on it". As a IT guy for most of my life I can tell you that web sites are not always the most current. A call is worth a 1000 web words ;-() just my opinion however

I had a discussion earlier today with Jeff Zwier, Head of Sales USA for VariantHouse. This came about after an email indicating he thought I was not being truthful in my post above. I read thru his discourse on my post and when I called we went over the 4 points along with my thoughts about how i interpreted what I said. The response by Batman is basically the same email I received, so I reviewed what I said.

1. no r value for comparison. The reason I said this was because here in the US we are all enthralled with R values. U values mean nothing to us except in regards to windows and doors. It's just the way we do things here. Now the r value is reported as 4.7/". This would be a very desireable r value however once again ICFs have typically been touted as a "total" R value for a given size. This is one way we understand it. Now the neopar? or whatever foam has been tested as having this rating per inch. I still want to see it as a total R value based on a size to make comparisons easier.
2. The house mentioned is supposed to use 3 liters, or .7925 gallons, per 10 sq. ft of space per season. That is a very good useage rate, and well worth looking at closer. I will say it's an extremely attractive number. My comments about not having a heating system here in the states, I don't have a clue about Germany's heating season, is based on simple economics. If the variant 17.7" block has a r value of 4.7/", does that make it over R80? This I would like clarified, which is why I would like to see the total r values for each size, however I have never thought i did not need to furnish a heating system with any ICF system which starts at R24 or better. If we take another mfg and add more insulation to either side, it's r value goes up to whatever level is determined. However, I have not seen any other mfg suggest that no heating system is possible, although I do agree that a very well insulated and tight structure would benefit greatly from passive solar type heat practices.
3. The strap issue. I missed this on their website. It's under a heading called elements, which I didn't click on because I did not peruse the complete website. My comparison the reddi-Form was based on what I looked at on the first webpage under products
4. The following line from the website under House Building System states...."Instead of exorbitant scaffolding and form dismantling plus subsequently insulating the finished walls, our Neopor® elements are the formworks and insulation at the same time."

During my discussion, this was clarified as not needing bracing for short walls, and I agree because I would do the same, no or limited bracing for a crawl space type foundation. However, when i first read the line, and when i reread the line, to me it says "We don't need bracing!!" I'm not aware of a system yet that can pour walls 9'-10' high, without bracing. Sure, you can pourfrom a ladder, but to straighten out any bows in walls leaning in or out, most of us do it before we pour. I interpreted the line as misleading.

Anyway, it does appear this system may require another look. However, I was not able to get a price point or range, based on sq. ft, in order to think about whther this product can do well for ICF contractors. They didn't go to IBS to sell to homeowners(no offense meant), but i anticipate other questions needing answers in terms we use here, in the states. I think there is some European style aspects of both the language used and the website parameters and if we don't take the time to review everything, then others will make the same assumptions I did.

I ended our conversation in what I thought was a cordial manner, and thought i would add a few thoughts here for everyone to contemplate!


Instead of exorbitant scaffolding and form dismantling plus subsequently insulating the finished walls, our Neopor® elements are the formworks and insulation at the same time.was where I based

That's silly. There is a direct conversion between the two. No magic, no charts.

R-20 = 1/20 = U-Value = 0.05
U-0.3 = 1/0.3 = R-Value = 3.33

So, you could specify a wall U-Value of 0.04 and that equals 1/0.04 = R-Value 25.
....jc

I understand U values, and use them as necessary for Rescheck and Compliance fugures for building permits. And you're right, it is simple in it's relationship.

What I am saying is John Q. Public doesn't care about U values, because the term is not used in most advertising where a value of R is provided. I would like to see r-value with a U-value(perhaps in Par) in advertising.

However, in this case, a U value for a product is one thing, but an assembly using an U-value product is subject to the inclusion of all components. I suppose you could call this an average but in any case, for comparison purposes, one cannot take the U-value and multiply by the assembly thickness only thru the u-value portion of the assembly when the assembly functions as a total of it's parts.

Years ago, some sellers of blocks with poly-prop strapping tried to create an aura of distaste for blocks like Polysteel claiming the steel ties exaserbated thermal bridging, when in reality, the product functions as an assembly, and in my mind, the steel tie material did not make an issue!

R values are calculated at 70 degrees and are really not a good standard for heat loss.
Is heat loss what you are looking for with a r value?
May be we should just look at heat loss to compare the savings.
Dollar to dollar for heating, btu's to btu's that is the way to see the thuth.
Just a ? to see what you all think.

It seems that no one is considering that we are dealing with ICF in this issue, the items being compared to are windows and stick built where R factors and U factors come into play. With Icf the true measure of the insulating value in my opinion is K value factor. Sorry John Q public this may be confusing, but with technology we also have to come up with correct ways to measure any given entity, in all of the measurments that have been presented in the posts including this one we are dealing with measurements for specific products and each one has to be measured correctly applying the proper technology to its ability. Each measurement is the ability of that perticular product to resist thermal transfer from point A to point B.
I am not versed enough in K-value yet to explain it properly but I have been learning from my Heating sub about K-value and what he is telling me makes sense. For example when we measure R value it covers thermal transfer of air, which to me says at some point the air in side of a structure meets the air from the outside of the structure, which at that point creates condensation with in the wall, (warm and cold meet you have condensation) possibly a reason why we have a mold issue. With an ICF wall we do not have the transfer of air only conductance which is the basis for K-value and in my opinion the correct way to measure the thermal resistance value of the product, Altough you still have a point where hot and cold meet it is much slower allowing the moister to disapate. (I have no scientific basis for that comment at this point just common sense).

ICF Builder magazine had an excellent article titled "R-Value, K-Value, and U-Value". You can find it in at http://www.icfbuilderinfo.com/articles/RKU_Values.html The summary states that, "R-Value is a number that has been poorly defined and even less understood." When customers begin to understand the full concept of energy efficiency, they begin to understand the merits of building with ICF. It is up to us to facilitate the process, but you just gotta love these cowboy types that shoot form the hip whenever they see a gunfight comin'. "...wouldn't waste my time..." or "there is one made here in the US, Reddi-form" (a comparison made before understanding the concept and relative merits, or not, of the varianthouse sustem. Or maybe you don't gotta love 'em.