Do ICFs make sense in a basement wall?
Last Post 18 Apr 2013 09:03 PM by sailawayrb. 32 Replies.
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dmaceldUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 01:25 AM
Posted By sailawayrb on 18 Apr 2013 12:58 AM

Relative to protecting/waterproofing below ground ICF, does anyone have experience using Platon?

Platon
I used it on my house on the crawl space walls. Deepest cover is maybe 5 feet. The only real problem I encountered was expansion. I figured out you need to put it on during a warm day when the sun is shining bright. That way it will be expanded when you fasten it to the wall. As it cools it'll stretch tight. If you install it on a cold day it'll expand and buckle when the sun warms it up. I posted some pics and discussion about the problem back in '08 or '09. Use google to search for "site:greenbuildingtalk.com dmaceld platon". That should bring it up. DMX is another similar product.

I installed it down over the footing to keep any water that followed it down from puddling on top of the footing.




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rainmanUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 09:18 AM
I appreciate the advice, I have contacted another engineer and am waiting for a response from him.  As for TF Systems, I have contacted them several times but they have not been too "on the ball" with the regards to my project and therefore I found a supplier more local to me.  I am going to contact them again today to see if they will allow me to visit a job site or possibly come out and handle some of the blocks. 

I am hopeful and all of the feedback I've received has been very helpful.  I understand that sailawayrb likes TF System BUT what does everyone think about NUDURA?  I have chosen them largely on the fact that my local distributor is about 1 hour away and when I purchase the system he will come to the build site and work with me and my helpers for a day showing us how to stack and BRACE the walls. 

Any other advice...web sites...etc. is certainly appreciated.  I just want to be as prepared as I can so I don't have to ask for a "DO OVER" because I screwed something up.

Thank you everyone,
Mike


P.S.
I just got my quote from engineer specializing in ICF...$10,000.00; does that sound really high or am I really cheap???...lol  Does anyone have any recommendations for an engineer?  Thanks again to everyone.
jonrUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 09:32 AM
the real issues we face are expansive clay and limestone the size of large trucks


Those are good reasons to think twice about an underground foundation of any kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-Grade_Mat_Foundation_for_Expansive_Soils
ICFBdrUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 11:50 AM
Nudura makes a premium product. You will not be dissapointed with the quality of this form. Be sure your local distributor is willing/able to help you stack blocks/inspect/pour concrete.
rainmanUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 12:56 PM
My local distributor is going to show me how to work with the system and bracing which is great.  Does anyone know of a good structural engineer? 

Thank you
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 01:02 PM
Yes, clay is one of those factors that should get you thinking about proper engineering. $10K for what…please don’t say that is just the engineering? What state are you building in? You should be able to find a good structural engineer that can create sealed residential ICF drawings for under a couple thousand…and less if you are GC that works frequently with them…

Believe it or not, there are local building regulations that will allow you to build basements without any rebar. And there are buildings still being built this way. However, as soon as you see a horizontal crack in the middle of the wall, you know that you betted wrong…

Yes, I think I am evolving into a strong fan of TF Systems vertical ICF (my reasons were previously posted and won't be repeated again here), but I haven’t actually built with it yet so I am reserving my final judgment. TF Systems will send a trainer to your site to provide assistance too.  They just had their annual training event in Green Bay a couple weeks ago.  They reported that they will soon be expanding their distribution and their training to other states.  There is certainly nothing wrong with NUDURA. Success largely depends more on being competent with the actual system that you choose rather than the actual system itself.
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rainmanUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 01:10 PM
Here is what the $10,000 would get me...

Foundation

Floor framing

Roof framing

Structural member sizes and details.

ICF details

Wood framing details.

I still think this is excessive and is probably due to the lack of popularity with basements in TX.  I am really thinking of looking at firms in the NW, NE and upper MW regions.
sailawayrbUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 01:17 PM
Perhaps see ND96’s recent thread regarding his large residential building project in TX and ask him for recommendations on a good engineer. He is acting as his own GC.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
rainmanUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 01:30 PM
By chance do you have a link to that thread?  I did a search for ND96 but it found 0 results.

Thank you.
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18 Apr 2013 02:02 PM
Posted By PanelCrafters on 17 Mar 2007 09:27 PM


BTW, I hadn't thought about the heat loss through the footers. That makes the ICF wall even less efficient than the 5" insulated poured wall.

I don't think that there is any heat loss through the footers(heat won't get there). My point is that the ground temperature is thermally conducted into the wall(from the footers), which is a good thing as it reduces the Delta T(especially in above grade applications).

The key is simply preventing the heat from escaping the 'Thermal Envelope'. Because once it does, I doubt that you'll see any benefit.

Huh?  Heat won't move from the house to the concrete, and from concrete into soil? How does that work? That statement seems counter to some pretty well-established physics.

Ground heat is conducted into the wall, in some seasons in some locations, but in most of the US the direction of heat flow is from the wall into the footer, all year long.  Heat flow into the wall is from the interior all winter long, but only out of the footer into the wall when averaged daily interior & outdoor temp is below that of the subsoil.  Only when the concrete in the wall is above the temp of the subsoil is the flow reversed. In a 70F house with 50F subsoil and an extremely shallow footing, it only starts conducting out of the footer in an all-above grade wall when it's below 30F outside. But when that condition persists over a season the soil below the footing drops too.

Since the footer by code typically has to be below the design freeze depth, with the ICF going all the way to the footer it has to be even colder still outside, in part because the depth of say 4-6' of concrete has the same order of magnitude R as the ICF skins. Concrete is not a refractory material.  Soil isn't a refractory material either, but it's less conductive that concrete, but with 50F soil there's a constant heat load 24/365 of heat moving from the interior to the footing and beyond. But it matters what the subsoil temps are- in very colder climates it's worth insulating the footers (even underneath), but in TX, not so much.

The effect of that thermal conductivity pf the footing to the subsoil has nearly no consequence for the above-grade temperature of the concrete or delta-T experienced by the wall.  In a conditioned basement with 5'  of below grade concrete between grade and the footing you have about R5 of isolation from the footing in just in the thermal resistance of the concrete, and less than 1/5 the surface area/cross section as compared to the area of the R10 interior & exterior foam.  It's still highly dominated by the interior & exterior temperatures.  Heat flow is an delta-T x R x surface area thing, and just the bottom two feet of foam above the footing account for a bigger heat flow into/out of the footing than the rest of the wall added up, so by the time you're above-grade the effect on the concrete temp is negligible. But the 24/365 heat load going through the lower half of the wall is still readily measurable with 50F subsoil, even if it's not always worth treating.    Slab on grade stemwalls in shallow frost depth regions with warmer subsoils may get a measurable net benefit out of the conductivity to the soil, but not in most heating dominated climates.




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18 Apr 2013 02:05 PM
Posted By rainman on 18 Apr 2013 01:30 PM
By chance do you have a link to that thread?  I did a search for ND96 but it found 0 results.

Thank you.

The search function on this forum is one of the worst going, but I think this it the thread he was referring to.
rainmanUser is Offline
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18 Apr 2013 02:29 PM
Thank you very much.  I got it and sent an email...I hope he can point me in the right direction for engineering.
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18 Apr 2013 09:03 PM
Thanks dmaceld for the Platon info...that was exactly the install details I wanted to know. I assume you didn't have any other issues once you got it buried.

Thanks Dana for the thread navigation assist!

Yes rainman, hopefully nd96 can point you in a better direction. He clearly has a good design/build team on his project.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
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