Trooper4985
New Member
Posts:8
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| 19 Jul 2010 08:08 PM |
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I'm planning on building a completely ICF house (slab to roof). How are the roof slabs supported? Is the entire load on the exterior walls or is some of the load transfered to the 2nd floor interior walls? Can I use 2X4's for the interior walls on the second floor and ceiling on the second floor? I only wish to use the attic for storage so no need to support heavy loads. The second area I have questions about is HVAC. I have been doing a lot of reading and I really like the idea of a wood gasification boiler (Tarm or EcoBurn) for both domestic hot water and hydronic heating. Are there any special problems associated with ICF floor/roof and the venting requirements for a wood boiler? Below are links to the plan I have come up with so far. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/...Front1.jpghttp://i158.photobucket.com/albums/...Floor1.jpghttp://i158.photobucket.com/albums/...Floor1.jpg |
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TexasICF
Advanced Member
Posts:622
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| 20 Jul 2010 09:46 AM |
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Posted By Trooper4985 on 19 Jul 2010 08:08 PM
I'm planning on building a completely ICF house (slab to roof). How are the roof slabs supported? Is the entire load on the exterior walls or is some of the load transfered to the 2nd floor interior walls? Can I use 2X4's for the interior walls on the second floor and ceiling on the second floor? I only wish to use the attic for storage so no need to support heavy loads.
The second area I have questions about is HVAC. I have been doing a lot of reading and I really like the idea of a wood gasification boiler (Tarm or EcoBurn) for both domestic hot water and hydronic heating. Are there any special problems associated with ICF floor/roof and the venting requirements for a wood boiler?
Trooper, See www.insul-deck.org if you're interested in concrete roofs and how to tie them to ICF. Decision regarding loads is up to you (or your engineer). You might decide to run your basement wall all the way up in a few places (if that makes sense). Putting some of the load on interior walls will reduce the thickness required to span your insul-deck or bar-joist or other concrete floor solution. Nothing wrong with 2x4s for your interior walls. I wouldn't use them for your ceiling as generally they just are strong enough to support even themselves. I can't offer much on the HVAC systems you are contemplating. Just be careful that you don't over-tonne your home -- easy to do. Regards. |
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Clark
Basic Member
Posts:248
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| 22 Jul 2010 07:56 AM |
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Posted By Trooper4985 on 19 Jul 2010 08:08 PM
I'm planning on building a completely ICF house (slab to roof). How are the roof slabs supported? Is the entire load on the exterior walls or is some of the load transfered to the 2nd floor interior walls? Can I use 2X4's for the interior walls on the second floor and ceiling on the second floor? I only wish to use the attic for storage so no need to support heavy loads.
Your plan calls for some pretty large spans for the floor and ceiling joists. You need to familiarize yourself with the codes and manufacturer's data tables regarding maximum spans for various joist material. For example, I think you are looking at 14" I-joists for the garage ceiling to carry the dead and live loads of the living space above. Even at that depth, floor vibration may be objectionable. You could, of course, run a steel I-beam the width of the garage with support columns every so many feet to provide solid support for the upper level floor. The ceiling joists in the living and dining rooms are over 30'. Even if your attic is only used for storage, how are you planning to span that distance? Using concrete slabs for the roof will require careful engineering, as well. In general, simple rectangular shaped houses of this size are not common because the cost of construction is so much higher. |
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BrucePolycrete
Advanced Member
Posts:524
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| 22 Jul 2010 08:03 AM |
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You might want to look at SIPs for the roof -- although the last few quotes we got were pretty high. |
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Trooper4985
New Member
Posts:8
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| 22 Jul 2010 10:21 AM |
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Posted By BrucePolycrete on 22 Jul 2010 08:03 AM
You might want to look at SIPs for the roof -- although the last few quotes we got were pretty high. Forgot to add the dining/living area is vaulted, hence the change in roofline.
Posted By TexasICF on 20 Jul 2010 09:46 AM
Posted By Trooper4985 on 19 Jul 2010 08:08 PM
I'm planning on building a completely ICF house (slab to roof). How are the roof slabs supported? Is the entire load on the exterior walls or is some of the load transfered to the 2nd floor interior walls? Can I use 2X4's for the interior walls on the second floor and ceiling on the second floor? I only wish to use the attic for storage so no need to support heavy loads.
The second area I have questions about is HVAC. I have been doing a lot of reading and I really like the idea of a wood gasification boiler (Tarm or EcoBurn) for both domestic hot water and hydronic heating. Are there any special problems associated with ICF floor/roof and the venting requirements for a wood boiler?
Trooper,
See www.insul-deck.org if you're interested in concrete roofs and how to tie them to ICF. Decision regarding loads is up to you (or your engineer). You might decide to run your basement wall all the way up in a few places (if that makes sense). Putting some of the load on interior walls will reduce the thickness required to span your insul-deck or bar-joist or other concrete floor solution.
Nothing wrong with 2x4s for your interior walls. I wouldn't use them for your ceiling as generally they just are strong enough to support even themselves.
I can't offer much on the HVAC systems you are contemplating. Just be careful that you don't over-tonne your home -- easy to do. Regards.
Guess I shouldn't have said 2x4's for the ceiling... I meant lumber vs. ICF since I'm not looking for a huge insulation/sound deadening factor from the 2nd floor ceiling as long as I can work an ICF roof into this plan. Thanks for the input guys... I'm close to submitting this to the architect and am trying to avoid as much hassle as possible. |
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renangle
Basic Member
Posts:304
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| 22 Jul 2010 02:39 PM |
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Just to throw it out there, I have had tremendous success working with Pennie Garber, an architect at Lineage Architects out of Virginia. Much of her design work is ICF and her husband is an Engineer (who has designed over 300,000 sqft of ICF wall). Just easy to work with, very honest one stop shop for ICF. Feel free to call them at 540-248-3771.
renangle |
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Eric Anderson
Basic Member
Posts:441
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| 22 Jul 2010 04:41 PM |
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OK here goes.
You are building 6300 ft^2 of insulated space with 1 bedroom. That is a lot to heat, icf or otherwise.
I am assuming that you figured out what the basement needed to be to do what you want and added the same sized house on top.
For what it is worth, I did the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Assuming you don’t actually need all the living space why not build this as a cape, same basement, upstairs smaller. You will still have ~ 2000 ft of living space upstairs and a cheaper, simpler build.
I would make the bathroom and laundry room a single room with one door. Hide the washer/dryer behind bifold doors if you don’t want them viewed by guests.
In the kitchen I would add an island or shrink the U shape a bit. You have to walk 12 ft to go from the sink to the fridge. That will get annoying fast.(at least to me)
Your work triangle is too large all around to be efficient.
If you are setting it up for multiple cooks, an island with a separate prep sink would help.
I would rethink the size of the living/dining room. Unless you entertain a lot, the space will feel weird with just 2 of you.
I would think about a small eating space and a separate large formal dining area for guests.
Not much natural lighting in the living room/dining room. either add more windows or add tubular skylights to brighten it up.
2 You have huge spans in the basement, it can be done but will be expensive and likely too flexible underfoot in the living space. It will limit flooring choices.
Basement comments: You should have a large double sink in the basement. You don’t want to be carrying carboys up and down the stairs to brew beer.
You also could consider a toilet in the basement so you don’t have to walk into the finished part of the house when you are dusty and or greasy from the shop.
Add some windows to the basement so it does not look like a dungeon.
Add an exterior door in th basement by the wood boiler, make it a 48” steel door so you can bring in firewood easily.
The run of stairs is too long. It will probably need an intermediate landing to meet code
It is also a long way to carry groceries from the car to the kitchen
Just my thoughts,
Eric |
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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Clark
Basic Member
Posts:248
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| 23 Jul 2010 03:01 PM |
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This doesn't address your initial question, Trooper, and I don't mean to pile on, but there are a couple important code issues here. All building codes require at least one exit from a habitable room in the house directly to the outside. The exit cannot pass through a garage. See IRC Section R311. Building codes also specify a minimum area of windows to let in natural light and ventilation. The dining and living rooms have a combined area of about 1200 sf. The IRC requires a minimum of 8% window area in each main room. That translates into nearly 100 sf of glass in the living/dining room, far more than the plan shows. |
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Trooper4985
New Member
Posts:8
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| 28 Jul 2010 02:47 PM |
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Ok, It looks like I can go to a max span of 25' according to Insul-Deck's website which means a big overhaul to our design but that wont be a big issue... it's actually an excuse to build a litle further back on the property (52+ acres) where there is a bit of a slope... more of a mountain type house with a smaller attached garage and a pole barn for all my toys.
I guess the only questions I have now are, is the 25' span measured on the inside or the outside of the exterior walls? And is a 6" wall strong enough to have 10' of dirt backfilled against it or will I have to go with a thicker exterior wall for the basement level?
And thank you to everyone for your input... all good ideas and info about the building code. Still can't believe that the government can tell me how many windows I have to have in a room though  |
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Clark
Basic Member
Posts:248
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| 28 Jul 2010 04:07 PM |
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Posted By Trooper4985 on 28 Jul 2010 02:47 PM
I guess the only questions I have now are, is the 25' span measured on the inside or the outside of the exterior walls? And is a 6" wall strong enough to have 10' of dirt backfilled against it or will I have to go with a thicker exterior wall for the basement level?
The span measures from inside of the bearing surface on one end to the inside of the bearing surface on the other. If it was me, I'd go with an 8" wall and use plenty of reinforcing. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 28 Jul 2010 06:24 PM |
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I suggest sips or scips or anything other than ICFs for the roof.
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budden
New Member
Posts:40
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| 28 Jul 2010 07:15 PM |
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From above, Mr Clark:
"For example, I think you are looking at 14" I-joists for the garage ceiling to carry the dead and live loads of the living space above. Even at that depth, floor vibration may be objectionable. "
14" is about what I get too, looking at the span tables.
But you mentioned something that the span tables are entirely silent about -- floor vibration.
How much vibration do you get with a 20-25' span? And without decreasing the span, what practical ways are there to decrease it?
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Clark
Basic Member
Posts:248
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| 29 Jul 2010 11:35 PM |
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Posted By budden on 28 Jul 2010 07:15 PM
From above, Mr Clark:
"For example, I think you are looking at 14" I-joists for the garage ceiling to carry the dead and live loads of the living space above. Even at that depth, floor vibration may be objectionable. "
14" is about what I get too, looking at the span tables.
But you mentioned something that the span tables are entirely silent about -- floor vibration.
How much vibration do you get with a 20-25' span? And without decreasing the span, what practical ways are there to decrease it?
Yes, you will experience vibration in your long span floors. Even going beyond the code tables, vibration can be a felt when simply walking across the floor with a heavy footstep. You can lessen the vibration in a number of ways: 1. Use deeper floor joists to minimize deflection. 2. Closer on-center spacing of the floor joists. 3. Glue and screw your 3/4" T&G subfloor to the joists. 4. Use open-web (truss) type floor joists with strongbacks (two 2x6 running perpendicular to and through the joists.) 5. Fasten plywood to the underside of the joists (even gypsum board helps.) 6. Increase the mass of the floor (provided the joists can handle the increased dead load.) I noticed that once all the floors were finished, cabinets and countertops installed, and furniture in place, vibration was less noticeable. Thick carpeting with a heavy pad helps, too. If vibration of any kind is unacceptable, it may be best to shorten spans in your design from the start. |
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insuldeckflorida
Basic Member
Posts:158
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| 30 Jul 2010 09:21 AM |
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trooper4985 you can span over 35' with insuldeck, flat or sloped, its just a question of engineering, floor/roof thickness and $... if you email or call me 772 225 5404 or 772 201 6100 i'll be glad to speak with you... i have been in the icf business since 1995 and insuldeck south-eastern/caribbean rsm since 2002... i can connect you with well over 100 architects and structural engineers experienced with both systems in that region, if you need help. i live in a 2 story icf/insuldeck house on the intracoastal in florida, with 24' clear spans, cantelevers, all floors and roofs concrete... if you are close by, you are invited to visit... or youi can visit some of our projects under construction in the south-east. regards peter [email protected] [email protected] |
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ilgeo
Basic Member
Posts:180
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| 30 Jul 2010 12:08 PM |
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As far as 2nd floor deck on your post design I would think Spancreate or other mfg of precast can get just what you need no problem. here is a reference manual; http://handbook.spancrete.com/index.cfm?act=login. HD xps over the precast and radiant heat installed on that. did a 24,000sqft house all pored or cmu walls and precast floors 12 years ago all radiant w heat pump and boilers. Tarms are good boilers and you need a load calc to size properly factoring in the storage concept w wood gasification
Eric |
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Jerry D. Coombs, PE
Basic Member
Posts:138
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| 16 Aug 2010 02:50 PM |
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Insul-Deck is a good product, as well as other form systems. I developed the early span tables for Insul-Deck, and as I recall, some of the spans were governed by long-term deflection. We're working on getting some prescriptive concrete floor designs put into the ACI 332 (Residential Concrete) but it won't be in the publication just now coming out. In the mean time, I hope you have a structural engineer involved. Preferably one with some ICF experience. Span lengths are taken center-of-support to center-of-support.
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Jerry D. Coombs, P.E.<br>Coombs Engineering, P.C.<br>
<br>You can have with quality; You can have it fast; You can have it cheap.
Pick any two. |
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masterplaster
New Member
Posts:1
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| 29 Aug 2010 06:24 PM |
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look on the website for Holdfast Technologies in Medway Ohio call them for all your answers. |
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