Hey lzerarc,

I thought about contacting them but I'm going to finish discussing my project with Nudura but may contact them again if I'm not impressed with Nudura.

I appreciate your input.

Mike

Hi Brian,

The reason that less concrete is appealing to me is obviously cost reduction.  When you have a companies such as Rastra, Hobbs and HercuWall claiming to offer the same strength and using less concrete.  The concrete cost is my second largest expense and is only offered by one company in my area which means that the mark-up is huge.

I've been looking at Nudura and have heard many, many good things and maybe one or two negative things.  I will again be in contact with the Nudura rep that is only 45 minutes away from my build site.  That alone is a great benefit IF the rep is truly focused on the success of the project and doesn't come in late with hidden fees and additional "add-ons" to make the system "work" like it should.

Like you said Brian, it's really about the ongoing support offered to the end-user. 

Thanks,
Mike

I am not familiar with your area, but I have often wondered about termit issues with a grid-style ICF. Termites are not an issue in my area so I am admittedly uneducated in this regard, but I would be concerned that the areas that are solid foam (ie, between the posts/beams of concrete) could provide easy access for termites to the inside. I understand that termites will not find any nutritional value in the EPS, but they can chew through it in search of food.

I could never figure out why anyone would build a house with walls you can shove a rake handle through. Think those foam walls will stand up to a debris ball like the one that came with the Moore, OK tornado? Not bloody likely.

Posted By rainman on 20 May 2013 06:44 PM
Hi Brian,

The reason that less concrete is appealing to me is obviously cost reduction.  When you have a companies such as Rastra, Hobbs and HercuWall claiming to offer the same strength and using less concrete.  The concrete cost is my second largest expense and is only offered by one company in my area which means that the mark-up is huge.

I've been looking at Nudura and have heard many, many good things and maybe one or two negative things.  I will again be in contact with the Nudura rep that is only 45 minutes away from my build site.  That alone is a great benefit IF the rep is truly focused on the success of the project and doesn't come in late with hidden fees and additional "add-ons" to make the system "work" like it should.

Like you said Brian, it's really about the ongoing support offered to the end-user. 

Thanks,
Mike

There is one key word in there... They CLAIM to have the same strength. Shop around on the ICF Systems, just because there is a Nudura rep 45 min away doesn't really change anything as it is all shipped from a manufacturing facility to that rep, he doesn't make it. I bet if you look any of the big manufacturers have representation in your area. After the concrete cures, it is all the same, foam with SOLID concrete in the middle. Bruce said it well, heck you could even poke a straightened coat hanger right through a waffle system, without even having to push hard... Don't even get me started on Rastra...

Posted By BrianBaron on 21 May 2013 01:13 PM

Posted By rainman on 20 May 2013 06:44 PM
Hi Brian,

The reason that less concrete is appealing to me is obviously cost reduction.  When you have a companies such as Rastra, Hobbs and HercuWall claiming to offer the same strength and using less concrete.  The concrete cost is my second largest expense and is only offered by one company in my area which means that the mark-up is huge.

I've been looking at Nudura and have heard many, many good things and maybe one or two negative things.  I will again be in contact with the Nudura rep that is only 45 minutes away from my build site.  That alone is a great benefit IF the rep is truly focused on the success of the project and doesn't come in late with hidden fees and additional "add-ons" to make the system "work" like it should.

Like you said Brian, it's really about the ongoing support offered to the end-user. 

Thanks,
Mike

There is one key word in there... They CLAIM to have the same strength. Shop around on the ICF Systems, just because there is a Nudura rep 45 min away doesn't really change anything as it is all shipped from a manufacturing facility to that rep, he doesn't make it. I bet if you look any of the big manufacturers have representation in your area. After the concrete cures, it is all the same, foam with SOLID concrete in the middle. Bruce said it well, heck you could even poke a straightened coat hanger right through a waffle system, without even having to push hard... Don't even get me started on Rastra...

Hey Brian,

The only reason I mention the Nudura rep being 45 minutes away is simply for the support benefit that can be gained if needed.  I do understand that the rep/distributor doesn't manufacturer the product but only sales and hopefully supports it.  I have "SHOPPED AROUND" and Nudura is the only one that I've found within a 3 hour radius of my site that has a crew of installers already in my area.

Now, you said "After the concrete cures, it is all the same, foam with SOLID concrete in the middle."...ReddiForm was the first system I looked at and gave me the absolute lowest quote for my entire house which came in at $20K for a 6500sqft house, since they are all the same would you use that system?  I hope to see more people chime in on this one. 

Ok...so here are the million dollar questions!?!?!? 

Which system is the strongest?
(Depends on how much you believe the distributor according to all of them "WE'RE THE STRONGEST"...see next question)

Which distributor do you "trust"?
(Since they MAY lie to you, me, us...I guess it comes down to the "feeling" you get.)

Which system is the best? 
(To me that is all preference and is up to the installer.)

Which system is the easiest to use?   
(Again, this can all be preference and is up to the installer.)

Thank you,
Mike

All the reputable ICF products have been subjected to a rigorous testing process by independent third party testing labs before being accepted by the International Code Council (ICC).

You can ask them for the ICC test results and they will give them to you. If they have Canadian approvals, ask them for the results of their "Forming Capacity Test". It's one that's required by Canada, but not US. It measures the actual deformation and movement of the ICF wall when concrete is poured into it and vibrated. Pay attention to the thickness of the test wall, the depth of the lifts of concrete, the vibration technique, and then the final results.

Polycrete used a 10" thick wall, poured two lifts 4 feet deep separated by 15 minutes and vibrated between lifts. The result was zero deformation and 3mm of change in straightness (less than 1/8") which was easily adjusted with the bracing. That's over a 64 sqft test wall -- 8' tall and 8' wide. The data is on the PolycreteUSA.com website.

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 21 May 2013 02:33 PM
All the reputable ICF products have been subjected to a rigorous testing process by independent third party testing labs before being accepted by the International Code Council (ICC).

You can ask them for the ICC test results and they will give them to you. If they have Canadian approvals, ask them for the results of their "Forming Capacity Test". It's one that's required by Canada, but not US. It measures the actual deformation and movement of the ICF wall when concrete is poured into it and vibrated. Pay attention to the thickness of the test wall, the depth of the lifts of concrete, the vibration technique, and then the final results.

Polycrete used a 10" thick wall, poured two lifts 4 feet deep separated by 15 minutes and vibrated between lifts. The result was zero deformation and 3mm of change in straightness (less than 1/8") which was easily adjusted with the bracing. That's over a 64 sqft test wall -- 8' tall and 8' wide. The data is on the PolycreteUSA.com website.

Hi Bruce,

I checked out your companies site but didn't see any photos in your gallery of residential construction.  Just curious if it has been used for such an application?

thanks,
mike

Mike, Polycrete Big Block is used for residential construction, but here in the USA we focus primarily on commercial. The Polycrete.com site is our Canadian affiliate and has more residential pics. Default language on that site is French, but you can select English language by clicking on the word "english' in the upper right corner of the home page.

I have come to the conclusion long ago that the "Strength" of the ICF is more of an installation/pour issue than a final product. We all know wet concrete puts a lot of force on the forms. I have designed projects that used several different brands, which were typically selected by the winning contractor. It doesnt really matter to me which they used, as long as the end product was the same. I have done some FEMA 361 rated structures using 12" thick cores. Standard 2.5" block forms held up just fine for those, same as when 6" cores were used. Interestingly enough though, the 12" thick concrete for the FEMA 361 shelter (rated at 250 mph wind load and 100 mph projectile puncture test) by far met those. Infact a 6" wall can be engineered to do so. The thickness was due to the mass required to resist concrete deck uplift and internal pressures created when a funel hits.

Since the Nudura Rep is the closest to you, this is the form I would choose. Cameron has been in the ICF industry for years and has a good reputation from anyone I have talked to, so support should not be an issue (you can ask for references from other DIY projects he supplied).

Nudura's blocks are manufactured to a high standard. This is a premium product and you will be happy with it once you start installing the forms. There are definitely crappy blocks and good blocks on the market - Nudura falls into the latter category.

Since the Nudura Rep is the closest to you, this is the form I would choose. Cameron has been in the ICF industry for years and has a good reputation from anyone I have talked to, so support should not be an issue (you can ask for references from other DIY projects he supplied).

Nudura's blocks are manufactured to a high standard. This is a premium product and you will be happy with it once you start installing the forms. There are definitely crappy blocks and good blocks on the market - Nudura falls into the latter category.

Posted By ICFBdr on 22 May 2013 10:08 AM
Since the Nudura Rep is the closest to you, this is the form I would choose. Cameron has been in the ICF industry for years and has a good reputation from anyone I have talked to, so support should not be an issue (you can ask for references from other DIY projects he supplied).

Nudura's blocks are manufactured to a high standard. This is a premium product and you will be happy with it once you start installing the forms. There are definitely crappy blocks and good blocks on the market - Nudura falls into the latter category.

I really like the Nudura block and the locking mechanism to prevent floating.  I have spoken with Cameron a few times and think he is "the guy" for me to use; he seems very easy going and easy to deal with.  I intend to call him this afternoon and see where he has a current project that I can look at in person.

Thanks,
ICFBdr

Hey Brian,

The only reason I mention the Nudura rep being 45 minutes away is simply for the support benefit that can be gained if needed. I do understand that the rep/distributor doesn't manufacturer the product but only sales and hopefully supports it. I have "SHOPPED AROUND" and Nudura is the only one that I've found within a 3 hour radius of my site that has a crew of installers already in my area.

- Having the crew there is a benefit, if you are planning to DIY the project, talk to them about having the crew there for the pour, and possibly a pre-pour checklist day to make sure it all goes smoothly. It will be worth whatever it costs. Hopefully that means that they have bracing available for rent as well.

Now, you said "After the concrete cures, it is all the same, foam with SOLID concrete in the middle."...ReddiForm was the first system I looked at and gave me the absolute lowest quote for my entire house which came in at $20K for a 6500sqft house, since they are all the same would you use that system? I hope to see more people chime in on this one.

- That all depends on what type of support you are looking for with the purchase. Many times the cheapest price comes along with what we refer to as a "Dump and run" meaning the material is delivered by a carrier and possibly a product manual or dvd, any support above and beyond that you would need to hire a "consultant".

All user error aside. Once the concrete cures, you have pretty much the same end result. It is the frustration you go through in the build that makes the difference. If an ICF can pass the Canadian test, it will hold concrete.

Ok...so here are the million dollar questions!?!?!?

Which system is the strongest?
(Depends on how much you believe the distributor according to all of them "WE'RE THE STRONGEST"...see next question)

-All of the code approved systems will hold concrete. If you want the strongest, use Quad-Lock's R-38 system with 4" of foam on both sides. (I will always admit my bias) some will say that the metal tie systems are stronger, but again, they all hold concrete.

Which distributor do you "trust"?
(Since they MAY lie to you, me, us...I guess it comes down to the "feeling" you get.)

-By the time most of us sales guys work with a customer from the initial inquiry to the final sale we have developed a relationship, and I like t think a friendship as well. The feeling you get says a lot!

Which system is the best?
(To me that is all preference and is up to the installer.)

Quad-Lock..

Which system is the easiest to use?
(Again, this can all be preference and is up to the installer.)

They all have their ups and downs... And many similarities. Use the factors above to pick the right one.

Thank you,
Mike

If you decide to build in CO, WY, NM, NV, AZ, UT... Get in touch with me, I'll show ya what customer service should be

Best of luck with your project!

Posted By BrianBaron on 22 May 2013 02:49 PM

Hey Brian,

The only reason I mention the Nudura rep being 45 minutes away is simply for the support benefit that can be gained if needed. I do understand that the rep/distributor doesn't manufacturer the product but only sales and hopefully supports it. I have "SHOPPED AROUND" and Nudura is the only one that I've found within a 3 hour radius of my site that has a crew of installers already in my area.

- Having the crew there is a benefit, if you are planning to DIY the project, talk to them about having the crew there for the pour, and possibly a pre-pour checklist day to make sure it all goes smoothly. It will be worth whatever it costs. Hopefully that means that they have bracing available for rent as well.

Now, you said "After the concrete cures, it is all the same, foam with SOLID concrete in the middle."...ReddiForm was the first system I looked at and gave me the absolute lowest quote for my entire house which came in at $20K for a 6500sqft house, since they are all the same would you use that system? I hope to see more people chime in on this one.

- That all depends on what type of support you are looking for with the purchase. Many times the cheapest price comes along with what we refer to as a "Dump and run" meaning the material is delivered by a carrier and possibly a product manual or dvd, any support above and beyond that you would need to hire a "consultant".

All user error aside. Once the concrete cures, you have pretty much the same end result. It is the frustration you go through in the build that makes the difference. If an ICF can pass the Canadian test, it will hold concrete.

Ok...so here are the million dollar questions!?!?!?

Which system is the strongest?
(Depends on how much you believe the distributor according to all of them "WE'RE THE STRONGEST"...see next question)

-All of the code approved systems will hold concrete. If you want the strongest, use Quad-Lock's R-38 system with 4" of foam on both sides. (I will always admit my bias) some will say that the metal tie systems are stronger, but again, they all hold concrete.

Which distributor do you "trust"?
(Since they MAY lie to you, me, us...I guess it comes down to the "feeling" you get.)

-By the time most of us sales guys work with a customer from the initial inquiry to the final sale we have developed a relationship, and I like t think a friendship as well. The feeling you get says a lot!

Which system is the best?
(To me that is all preference and is up to the installer.)

Quad-Lock..

Which system is the easiest to use?
(Again, this can all be preference and is up to the installer.)

They all have their ups and downs... And many similarities. Use the factors above to pick the right one.

Thank you,
Mike

If you decide to build in CO, WY, NM, NV, AZ, UT... Get in touch with me, I'll show ya what customer service should be

Best of luck with your project!

Hi Brian,

I certainly see what you mean with regards to the relationship that is formed over the course of the "deal".  Of course NO ONE see's and form of BIAS on your part...

What it comes down to is me just pulling the trigger and get it done.

I did meet with the excavation crew today and with all of my rock here they quoted me $6,000.00 plus $165 per hour for a hammer hoe with a $200 delivery fee.  I think we might...just might be ready to get this party started.

Thanks for the advice/info.

So, I contacted Cameron and he has a few more projects coming up in my area and I am going to be going checking them out.  The HercuWall rep called me today and I expressed all of the concerns/questions that we've all chatted about on the board; he expressed that they have several jobs launching in Galveston, TX...I told him that I'd take a trip down just to observe and see how the system worked but that I was pretty firm with my choice.

I'm all about seeing new stuff.

I have had a fair amount of experience with this system and would be happy to discuss with you the pros/cons of it compared to traditional ICF blocks from a design, engineering and functionality standpoint. My contact info is under Architects on this site or thru my website - www.rkdzns.com.

Hi Rainman:

You mention a contractor that could provide you with a HercuWall and Hambro floor system. I have not had any experience with Hercuwall but please BEWARE of CANAM HAMBRO FLOOR SYSTEMS.

I am currently building a new house with a Hambro Floor System.  HAMBRO manufactured the floor joists before doing their contractual obligation of providing build/shop plans for me and my engineer to approve and sign.  They built off the plans for permit and forgot to update all final changes with a build/shop set.  The results of their mistake cost me months of delays and 10's of thousands of dollars in expenses.  CANAM HAMBRO agreed to reimburse me for all related expenses, but once the job was completed after extensive modifications onsite, CANAM HAMBRO reneged on their word. 

I have been a straw bale fan for years and have built two homes using this type of construction. Recently I have realized that this type of construction is never going to go mainstream. I read an article about HercuWall Systems recently in the Arizona Republic, the local Phoenix paper. A very large home builder, Meritage homes are using this system in a development in Goodyear just outside of Phoenix. The company, Meritage, feels they can sell these homes at a higher rate of return for their investment. I think this is a good indicator of how well this system works and if a large home builder like Meritage Homes are going to use this system for their exterior walls I think I will try and convince my next customer to use this system. They say the sq. ft. price for these 2,200 - 3,200 sq. ft homes will be $89 per sq ft. Their other conventional homes are priced between $93 to $108 sq. ft. That is an incentive since energy bills will drop by 50%. I think HercuWall is going to be very busy in the near future.

Posted By AZPERFHOMES on 06 Aug 2013 04:24 PM
I have been a straw bale fan for years and have built two homes using this type of construction. Recently I have realized that this type of construction is never going to go mainstream. I read an article about HercuWall Systems recently in the Arizona Republic, the local Phoenix paper. A very large home builder, Meritage homes are using this system in a development in Goodyear just outside of Phoenix. The company, Meritage, feels they can sell these homes at a higher rate of return for their investment. I think this is a good indicator of how well this system works and if a large home builder like Meritage Homes are going to use this system for their exterior walls I think I will try and convince my next customer to use this system. They say the sq. ft. price for these 2,200 - 3,200 sq. ft homes will be $89 per sq ft. Their other conventional homes are priced between $93 to $108 sq. ft. That is an incentive since energy bills will drop by 50%. I think HercuWall is going to be very busy in the near future.

I applaud Meritage for going the route of concrete homes because is the long term solution for homes out in the Phx area. Termites are everywhere and it is only a matter of when they infest a Phx home, not if.

Here is a link to an article regarding the ICF/HercuWall system. Per the news report the homes start in the low $300k's. I contacted them and they said prices will start at around $100 per sqft.

Meritage Homes - HercuWall

The question I have is will they install the typical cheap builder grade vinyl sliding (aka air leaking) windows? Typically a U-Value of 0.32 is used which creates energy holes in the homes wall. Sliders and single hung are the standard out here and they leak a lot of air. When 30% or greater of the wall space will be windows, you lose a lot of energy through the low-grade windows.

What is the true R-Value of the system? Since HercuWall is a honeycomb wall system that utilizes metal bracing, there is much more thermal bridging going on and less insulation in some areas. I doubt that it is a R-22 value as a standard ICF (2.5" x 2.5" EPS) wall system is. I would see the HercuWall coming in at around a true R-15 +/- when you calculate the honeycomb areas and the thermal bridging.

I would like to see them use better windows (casements) and non-vinyl windows with a U-Value of <0.20. I don't see that happening but one can only hope.